No More Big Pulls in Dungeons

[TheForce]

Especially when I was leveling my healers it was getting to a point where I had to pull ahead as a WHM just to have something to do.

To everybody reading this: do not ever do this. It's one of the rudest things and most toxic you can do to a Tank (assuming that the two of you are strangers and the Tank didn't approve you doing this).

[Aramyth]

My last several dungeons as a healer have suggested the appropriate time for a tank to use cooldowns is "what are those?"

Lol that's fun.

[HyoMinPark]

I'm not sure why so many stopped playing this game for fun. Eh.

Did it ever occur to you that, perhaps, those who do dungeons in 15 minutes or less are having fun? Or that, perhaps, being efficient with their toolkit is fun for them? Or big pulls are fun for them?

My idea of fun is not spending 30-40 minutes in a dungeon I’ve done hundreds of times.

[Noitems]

To everybody reading this: do not ever do this. It's one of the rudest things and most toxic you can do to a Tank (assuming that the two of you are strangers and the Tank didn't approve you doing this).

They weren't strangers btw as I was leveling them in a group.

Even then as a guy who mainly tanks if there's a DRG about to lose BotD or a BRD riding PP procs it's better for them to pull anyway if you're not quicker to the punch as it's going to make your life easier then having them rework themselves back up.

People gotta understand we're not in the days of Stormblood where we don't have diversion and an enmity reducing lucid, aggro is a joke so even if a DPS or Healer does pull first a tank even in the bare understanding is able to snap that aggro back insanely quickly.

That being said it's best to look at your tank first and if they're already sprinting into the best mob it's a good idea to set them up for an easier time.

[TheForce]

Did it ever occur to you that, perhaps, those who do dungeons in 15 minutes or less are having fun? Or that, perhaps, being efficient with their toolkit is fun for them? Or big pulls are fun for them?

My idea of fun is not spending 30-40 minutes in a dungeon I’ve done hundreds of times.

No need to be snarky, and hey, if that's what you find fun, more power to you, (although tbh I do strongly disagree :P ), I won't argue that. "Fun" is a bit subjective for sure. However, you must recognize that when it comes to a dungeon, or really any instance for that matter, the only "real" objective goal there is, is to complete said instance. Anything else is superfluous as far as the content goes, because, with all due respect, your standards are also subjective

Quick example, I'm one of those Tanks that you read about in horror stories that melds straight Tenacity + Determination. What makes me feel good as a Tank is seeing how little damage I take, opposed to how much damage I deal. Doing this has not prevented me from clearing any content,
in fact, the 4-5% extra mitigation has saved lots of runs I've been in. Am I wrong for focusing on Defense? No. Are you wrong for focusing on Offense? No, because we just have different standards/playstyles. And that's chill, as long as we don't try to impose them on others.

So to sum up my points, unless someone is preventing the group from clearing/progressing in the content, objectively speaking, just leave them be. HyoMinPark, you seem like an intelligent person, although as your peer I strongly disagree with most of your views, I'll admit that you are very well spoken and at least provide understandable reasoning. I'm sure you know there's a fine line between giving desperately needed advice to save a run and nitpicking.

[Callinon]

Did it ever occur to you that, perhaps, those who do dungeons in 15 minutes or less are having fun? Or that, perhaps, being efficient with their toolkit is fun for them? Or big pulls are fun for them?

My idea of fun is not spending 30-40 minutes in a dungeon I’ve done hundreds of times.

Landed in a Sastasha yesterday.. all of us level 60+ kind of scratching our heads as to what we were doing there. So we decided to roll the place. Finished in a little under 15 minutes. Actually was pretty fun doing that.

[ForteNightshade]

No need to be snarky, and hey, if that's what you find fun, more power to you, (although tbh I do strongly disagree :P ), I won't argue that. "Fun" is a bit subjective for sure. However, you must recognize that when it comes to a dungeon, or really any instance for that matter, the only "real" objective goal there is, is to complete said instance. Anything else is superfluous as far as the content goes, because, with all due respect, your standards are also subjective

This argument falls a bit flat when you've repeatedly insisted only the tank can dictate the pace. If the party, especially the healer, wants to go fast and you refuse to even attempt it. That would be you enforcing your subjective standards onto three other people.

Quick example, I'm one of those Tanks that you read about in horror stories that melds straight Tenacity + Determination. What makes me feel good as a Tank is seeing how little damage I take, opposed to how much damage I deal. Doing this has not prevented me from clearing any content,
in fact, the 4-5% extra mitigation has saved lots of runs I've been in. Am I wrong for focusing on Defense? No. Are you wrong for focusing on Offense? No, because we just have different standards/playstyles. And that's chill, as long as we don't try to impose them on others.

Actually, you are. At least to an extent. Less damage translates to the mobs living longer, thus you taking more damage in the long run. While Tenacity certainly won't make or break a run, it's objectively the inferior stat simply because it takes an obscene amount—far more than we can reasonably obtain—to have any impact how healers play. My healing rotation/priority will not deviant in the slightest based on whether you have Tenacity melds or Crit. Therefore, the former isn't doing anything except lowering your damage output. That has been the biggest complaints in regard to Tenacity as a stat. If it saved a GCD heal, then it'd be valuable. It doesn't, unfortunately. The only time Tenacity will have any impact is Ultimate prog and week 1 Savage.

[HyoMinPark]

No need to be snarky, and hey, if that's what you find fun, more power to you, (although tbh I do strongly disagree :P ), I won't argue that. "Fun" is a bit subjective for sure.

Not being snarky; even though I am annoyed at the constant “Idk what people treat this game like a job it’s just a video game” comments that appear whenever anyone mentions anything about being quick and efficient in any type of content. That’s not us treating anything like a job—it’s merely us getting stuff done in a quick and efficient manner; and yes, we do find that fun. As I said, I don’t enjoy spending 30~40 minutes in an easy dungeon that I’ve done countless times before; and it is quite fun to have all my AOE burst on a large pull and watch things melt.

I make concessions for those who say “I’m new to tanking/a bit rusty from a break” or “I’m new to healing/a bit rusty from a break”—a lot of the time, they do just fine and we still finish faster than 30 minutes. I make concessions for newcomers, but even they don’t often spend that long “taking in the sights”. I stop making concessions the minute an individual starts being rude or abrasive in chat regardless of if they are new, inexperienced, or a veteran: by either pulling the “I’m the tank, I’m the leader” card, or other rude comments (e.g., “I just won’t heal you if you pull more than one pack, then” or “AOEs are boring and I don’t like them so I won’t use them”).

However, you must recognize that when it comes to a dungeon, or really any instance for that matter, the only "real" objective goal there is, is to complete said instance. Anything else is superfluous as far as the content goes, because, with all due respect, your standards are also subjective

You need to also recognize that majority rules in content; the majority adds objectives. If 3 out of 4 want to go quickly, then the final person either has to acquiesce or leave. Same applies the other way around: if 3 out of 4 want to take their time and full-clear, then the outlier either needs to acquiesce or leave.

This thread in its entirety was started (assuming it wasn’t just troll bait) on the premise that parties had to acquiesce to the OP’s personal demands in the content (i.e., no large pulls; taking forever to finish the dungeon because the instance timer is 90 minutes; etc.); and there have been an increasing number of posts containing the “I’m the tank; I’m the leader” argument lately. These posts are those forcing their personal standards to go slow onto the rest of their party, but I don’t see you trying to apply any of your statements to them: only really to those that tend to disagree with the way you wish to do things.

Quick example, I'm one of those Tanks that you read about in horror stories that melds straight Tenacity + Determination. What makes me feel good as a Tank is seeing how little damage I take, opposed to how much damage I deal. Doing this has not prevented me from clearing any content,
in fact, the 4-5% extra mitigation has saved lots of runs I've been in. Am I wrong for focusing on Defense? No. Are you wrong for focusing on Offense? No, because we just have different standards/playstyles. And that's chill, as long as we don't try to impose them on others.

I personally don’t care what you meld on tanks—melds are inconsequential in dungeons. Whether or not you understand how to use your defensives and your tank AOEs to adequately hold aggro on all mobs in a trash pull means more to me than what you choose to meld in an Expert Roulette.

What I would also care about is if you and I were in a party, and you were the only one insisting on things like single pulls, taking our time through the content, trying to dictate what the party does, etc., when the rest of the party wanted to get the dungeon over with quickly. If you were in the minority and attempted to go against the majority, that would irritate me far more than what type of melds you have.

If I was the one in the minority, I would take my own advice and acquiesce to a slower pace—I’ve done this before. Would you acquiesce to a faster pace if the majority wanted things faster, or would you try to force a slower pace on the rest of the party?

So to sum up my points, unless someone is preventing the group from clearing/progressing in the content, objectively speaking, just leave them be.

To sum up my own: outliers should not attempt to dictate the pace of a party or a dungeon, but rather acquiesce to the majority and quietly remove themselves from a party. I’m a firm believer in majority rules, even when I’m in the minority.

HyoMinPark, you seem like an intelligent person, although as your peer I strongly disagree with most of your views, I'll admit that you are very well spoken and at least provide understandable reasoning. I'm sure you know there's a fine line between giving desperately needed advice to save a run and nitpicking.

This sounds more backhanded than complimentary, and I’m not sure if that was your intention or not...

When I’m in-game, I actually rarely even talk to people I’m partied with outside of a “hello” and “tyfp”. This is primarily because I don’t tend to have many complaints, and also because I play on a controller and putting it down to type (or typing one-handed) is a pain in my rear.

If I do speak out, it’s usually because something is going fairly wrong: DPS aren’t AOEing, healer is not keeping people alive, tank is not popping defensive cooldowns and dying a lot, someone is AFK for no reason, someone is being a brat, etc.. I’ve never pulled extra mobs for a tank. I’ve never tried to make a tank go faster by suggesting it in chat or Rescuing them into the next pack (although, if I’m healing and the tanks asks “big pulls or small”, I will always say big because I’ll fall asleep otherwise). I rarely even try to dismiss a person unless they’re being just downright belligerent or trying to leech. So I do a lot less nitpicking in-game than you seem to think.

That doesn’t mean I don’t stand behind what I say on here. I do. I just know when to acquiesce and adjust, and when I shouldn’t have to.

[Selova]

Quick example, I'm one of those Tanks that you read about in horror stories that melds straight Tenacity + Determination. What makes me feel good as a Tank is seeing how little damage I take, opposed to how much damage I deal. Doing this has not prevented me from clearing any content,
in fact, the 4-5% extra mitigation has saved lots of runs I've been in. Am I wrong for focusing on Defense? No. Are you wrong for focusing on Offense? No, because we just have different standards/playstyles. And that's chill, as long as we don't try to impose them on others.

This is a really bad example. DPS players obviously don't build defensively because slotting tenacity on dps would severely gimp the role they function as, The same thing applies to tanks. You building only tenacity and determination is not doing anyone any favors. The only purpose it serves is to slow down every group that has to deal with you as a tank. It's pretty obvious that you don't do content above DF, no one in their sane mind would take a tank that slots ten/det to any EX trial or Savage Raid and for some odd reason wants to intentionally gimp themselves under the guise of "Muh Playstyle". If you honestly enjoy playing like this then go for it, but don't be surprised when you get constantly VTK'd from groups.

[IttyBitty]

Substats really don't matter much outside of bleeding edge content/min-maxing potential, but that still doesn't mean tenacity is something you should go out of your way to stat for because it's not going to change healer decision making at all (meaning it is effectively doing nothing).