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  1. #241
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,870
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by TheForce View Post
    If the healer is able to get through content and keep everybody reasonably healed up, they are NOT a bad healer. To heck with the rest of your superfluous standards and nitpicks.

    ...if a Tank chooses to pull mob by mob, it's not a "snail's pace", stop being disrespectful. Some players prefer to do things differently and know what they can and cannot handle...
    Then, let's put this in context, given that this is about dungeons, which are generally laughably easy (especially if one treats wall-to-wall pulls as you do, i.e. merely as a tank's choice with no consequence upon their team's time, and therefore irrelevant to this discussion):

    If the healer keeps everyone alive by auto-clicking Cure II while /following the ranged DPS, does that make them a good healer? Are they any less bad just because a tiny responsibility that is purely theirs was fulfilled, regardless of productivity in whatever other responsibilities the healer may share with other roles?

    Choosing to do something inefficiently is a player choice, true--no one's argued that--but that mean it's not also impactful (and perhaps unfairly so) on the rest of your party. In all tasks, one has the choice to work at an unnecessarily slow pace... at least until its effects on others gets you replaced. Why should the same shock you here?
    (10)

  2. #242
    Player
    stanrir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    317
    Character
    I'septha Tayuun
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 80
    if I am in a dungeon as dps or healer and the tank starts that small pulling stuff then im out!
    (1)

  3. #243
    Player
    Hash_Browns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Posts
    788
    Character
    Hash Browns
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by CazzT View Post
    Except that more often than not, healers that follow this mentality "it's ok for tank hp to be low" cause wipes because they aren't healing the tank in time to prevent the tank from dying. If I see my hp regularly staying below 50% before I get a heal, I start pulling smaller. I don't enjoy dragging out runs because the healer should be on their BLM instead of their WHM.
    Healers DPSing and knowing when to heal are better healers then healers that constantly top off the tank, and make the runs that much faster.
    (8)

  4. #244
    Player
    CazzT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    612
    Character
    Kyssa Shay
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Reaper Lv 93
    Quote Originally Posted by Hash_Browns View Post
    Healers DPSing and knowing when to heal are better healers then healers that constantly top off the tank, and make the runs that much faster.
    Which is not counter to what I said. So we're in agreement on this point, at least.

    As Rilifane pointed out, it really is a case by case basis. I've just seen too many cases of me dropping below 50% and dying because the Healer seems to have forgotten that they're not a DPS role.
    (0)

  5. 11-10-2019 11:45 AM

  6. #245
    Player
    Videra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    738
    Character
    Videra Svenay
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 83
    Quote Originally Posted by AmurT View Post
    I had a scenario in Amaurot where the PLD pulled the first two packs and, after me keeping him perpetually hovering at around 20% HP the entire pull, decided to say in chat "Guess we're doing single pulls then". They did single pulls the whole run, and obviously, I still didn't bother healing them until they were about to die. I never said anything, and they didn't say anything after that either, but it became pretty obvious they were annoyed once I saw them stand around a bit before casting Clemency on themselves before the 2nd boss, they were at like 40% HP recovering slowly from being out of combat, but I guess they expected me to heal there too. Maybe they really wanted the extra Spirits Within potency.

    In any case, slow pulls in this instance almost caused a wipe for me towards the end of the dungeon, because I eventually ran out of cooldowns to use due to how drawn out the pulls were. In a situation like this, I think it's safer to blow all your AoEs and cooldowns on one wall to wall pull.
    Good man. That's exactly how you should be healing, and yes - wall to wall pulls are always more resource efficient.
    (3)

  7. #246
    Player RitsukoSonoda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Kugane (No that red crayon is totally legitimate) >.>
    Posts
    3,146
    Character
    Ritsuko Sonoda
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo View Post
    My first time in it, I walled to walled. Are you using Rampart, Reprisal, Arms Length, and all of your tools? Not all at once, of course, but in general. There shouldn't be a problem with you dying. Healer also could be zzzin, so who knows.
    To me there is more to the equation of my damage mitigation. I also track individual enemy damage output and attack types the first couple runs which is what I base my target priorities around when I run the same duties later on a different role. It leads to calculations of various thresholds where there is a risk of suddenly having HP drop to 0 should I take multiple instant use specials or just an unusually high number of critical hits in a single moment while holding aggro on 10+ enemies. I've also made adjustments on duties in the past just because a specific enemy was particularly annoying when mixed in with a swarm or when most of the enemies are exceptionally fat resulting in most player AoE's only being able to hit 2-4 of them reliably. The final factor is the actual output of the DPS in the party as I've also had issues in the past where I probably could have used HG at the start of the pull and used it a second time before they actually killed the enemies.
    (0)

  8. #247
    Player
    ForteNightshade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    3,653
    Character
    Kurenai Tenshi
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by rachcouture View Post
    A lot of people would disagree with you, but you're always welcome to hop over to Crystal and see how I play for yourself.

    If I don't have to use Benediction, then that's a good thing. It means everyone's gear was just in the right spot, the tank used all of their CDs to the best of their abilities, DPS were AoEing to their fullest potential, and I had plenty of time to throw out my own AoEs.
    And a lot of people don't know how to play their jobs well.

    Sitting on Benediction for the entire dungeon is never a good thing. You've essentially left the best heal White Mage has on the table for no benefit. Even worse, it means you've contributed less damage since you'll have to compensate with Cure II spams and may have forced the tank to allocate more CDs than they otherwise would need. I'd also like to point out the irony of your statement. The tank and DPS performed to the best of their abilities... but you didn't. Instead, you ignored the best CD at your disposal due to a flawed belief this is somehow better. Why can't the other two role ignore parts of their toolkit? After all, you have 90 minutes. If the Dragoon never touches Litany or even single targets. That shouldn't matter, right?

    What it boils down to is simple. If you have two healers, one contributing 11,000 DPS and the other 2,000 while both keeping the tank alive. The former contributed almost six times as much to the party, and made things faster as a result.

    Okay, but I'm not using it after someone has dipped below 50%.

    Excogitation is specifically designed as a safety net; a 'what if' scenario. If it doesn't go off before the timer runs out, then once again, that's very much a good thing for the same reasons I mentioned as with not having to use Benediction.
    No, it is. Like Benediction, Excog is the strongest heal Scholar has and allows them ample time to DPS without having to worry about the tank. A good use of it is with Recitation as the tank is pulling. Not only does this provide a buffer, it gets the cooldown ticking so you'll have a second use during the same pull—doubling your healing efficiency. I highly recommend reviewing this guide from Momo. Not only does he provide excellent tips, he's currently among the best Scholars in the entire game.

    If it's inefficient, how come I don't run out of MP? How come I never have trouble healing anyone, but have plenty of time to DPS?

    Let's say this is whatever the latest alliance raid may be, and I'm playing Scholar. If I'm wasting spells like Lustrate because I'm too tunnel-visioned to care about the tank until they drop below 50%, what will I have left for other party members that missed crucial mechanics and are seconds away from death during the middle of a DPS race? Adlo and Physick won't go off in time; not enough for multiple people.
    What the means is either the tank is compensating for you by stacking more CDs or you're not contributing nearly as much DPS as you think you are. As mobs wither down, you should be getting lower on MP since you'll have put that towards DPS. Ending a pull with say 7.400 MP despite not using Lucid or Thin Air means you could have contributed significantly more damage—which oGCDs like Benediction and Excog allow.

    All three healers have more than enough heals are their disposal if you're having a sloppy run, you can easily compensate. Your GCD heals are what you fall back on if things get particularly bad, not your oGCDs.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheForce View Post
    You need to relax. I'm not gonna reply to everything in this response because honestly I just don't care enough. But, I need to address a few things you brought up...so, if the healer is able to get through content and keep everybody reasonably healed up, they are NOT a bad healer. To heck with the rest of your superfluous standards and nitpicks, speaking as a Savage/EX Tank myself, if my healer can keep us healed up and allow us to progress through content, hey are a fine healer. Period. You're really coming off as an elitist right now. Also, speaking as a Tank who literally ALWAYS pulls wall to wall, if a Tank chooses to pull mob by mob, it's not a "snail's pace", stop being disrespectful. Some players prefer to do things differently and know what they can and cannot handle, and if their role gives them the authority to control just that, RESPECT THAT, or you have no business playing with a team. Pulling wall to wall isn't required to clear any content, and that's all that needs to be said.

    Some of you guys need to really stop treating this game like some nonsense office setting/work setting. It's so incredibly annoying, all you care about is efficiency, productivity, no mistakes, do things this way and only this way, you must abide by my subjective standards. If that's the poisonous outlook you choose to have, then you need to keep that to yourself, and stop trying to push it onto others online who are just trying to have a fun time playing Final Fantasy. If they are clearing content, they are fine.
    By that logic, a good DPS is someone who simply gets through the dungeon. If a Dragoon did nothing but spam Piercing Talon, they're still good because they contributed some damage and you all cleared. A hyperbolic example, yes, but the point stands. Doing the bare minimum of your job does not make you a good player. A bad player is someone who isn't making efficient use of their toolkit regardless of the role they play. Now this doesn't apply in lower level content where the expectation is players are still learning, but that excuse rings hollow as you get closer to the level cap. And falls completely flat come 70. You've had ample time to learn how to be reasonably efficient. If you aren't, that's down to pure stubbornness or ignorance.

    And yes, a tank pulling mob by mob is a snail's pace. That isn't disrespectful. It's a fact. You are pulling slower, thereby the dungeon is arbitrarily taking longer. Queuing as a tank does not entitle you to decide the pace. If three other people want to go quickly and you refuse, you're the one being entitled by forcing them to accommodate your preferred method despite being the minority. They, in turn, have every right to eject you should they choose to do so. No role gives anyone authority. You tout respect yet have little respect or consideration for your team's time and preferences themselves. That's a general you, by the way.

    I care about efficiency because it nets better results. What point is there to playing poorly? When you've ran dungeons, raids, trials and etc several hundred—if not thousands—of times, you want to get in and out quickly. There is no reason an Expert dungeon should take 30+ minutes when it could take 15. That's just wasting time that could be spent elsewhere; either doing other content or playing another game. It's one thing to have new or inexperienced players slowing down a run. But when it's an i460 player. All that means is pure laziness.

    Quote Originally Posted by CazzT View Post
    Except that more often than not, healers that follow this mentality "it's ok for tank hp to be low" cause wipes because they aren't healing the tank in time to prevent the tank from dying. If I see my hp regularly staying below 50% before I get a heal, I start pulling smaller. I don't enjoy dragging out runs because the healer should be on their BLM instead of their WHM.
    Then you either have a bad healer or a simple mistake. Even the best players sometimes misjudge. I would rather wipe because a healer mistimed Tetra than have one spamming Cure II every time my HP dropped below 70%. Pulling smaller just means I'll DPS even more aggressively. Whenever I have tanks do a small pull, I'll play "how low can you go" because I'm bored. That has nothing to do with wanting to play a green DPS but the fact this game doesn't require healers to do much healing. If you're doing a small pull, I can keep you alive with Regen and the occasional Lily while I afk. That's how pathetic small pulls are, and why I'll spam Holy.
    (13)
    Last edited by ForteNightshade; 11-10-2019 at 04:34 PM.
    "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters."
    "The silence is your answer."


  9. #248
    Player
    Tilvalia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    17
    Character
    Rin Risou
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 80
    In reality any argument in favor of OP, it's all about their feelings and how they could potentially get hurt. Wall to wall pulls are the most efficient, quickest ways and most people enjoy quick runs. Y'know, Instant Gratification. Sure, someone may get stressed, anxious... Yeah, absolutely, that's subjective, though!

    Looking at this objectively, it IS the quickest and fastest way! Just because YOU feel a certain way doesn't mean it dictates how others should play. Vice Versa. RESPECT each other's wishes. If you don't want to do wall 2 wall pulls for whatever reason, ask to be kicked or leave if you're that offended/upset. Don't ask them to bend to your will. How entitled.
    (9)

  10. #249
    Player
    Tilvalia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    17
    Character
    Rin Risou
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by TheForce View Post
    You need to relax. I'm not gonna reply to everything in this response because honestly I just don't care enough. But, I need to address a few things you brought up...so, if the healer is able to get through content and keep everybody reasonably healed up, they are NOT a bad healer. To heck with the rest of your superfluous standards and nitpicks, speaking as a Savage/EX Tank myself, if my healer can keep us healed up and allow us to progress through content, hey are a fine healer. Period. You're really coming off as an elitist right now. Also, speaking as a Tank who literally ALWAYS pulls wall to wall, if a Tank chooses to pull mob by mob, it's not a "snail's pace", stop being disrespectful. Some players prefer to do things differently and know what they can and cannot handle, and if their role gives them the authority to control just that, RESPECT THAT, or you have no business playing with a team. Pulling wall to wall isn't required to clear any content, and that's all that needs to be said.

    Some of you guys need to really stop treating this game like some nonsense office setting/work setting. It's so incredibly annoying, all you care about is efficiency, productivity, no mistakes, do things this way and only this way, you must abide by my subjective standards. If that's the poisonous outlook you choose to have, then you need to keep that to yourself, and stop trying to push it onto others online who are just trying to have a fun time playing Final Fantasy. If they are clearing content, they are fine.
    You don't have any savage mounts, lol... Why lie on an internet forum?
    (12)

  11. #250
    Player
    Callinon's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    ???
    Posts
    1,557
    Character
    Callinon Soulforge
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by TheForce View Post
    Some of you guys need to really stop treating this game like some nonsense office setting/work setting. It's so incredibly annoying, all you care about is efficiency, productivity, no mistakes, do things this way and only this way, you must abide by my subjective standards. If that's the poisonous outlook you choose to have, then you need to keep that to yourself, and stop trying to push it onto others online who are just trying to have a fun time playing Final Fantasy. If they are clearing content, they are fine.
    Aren't you doing the same thing here? You're unhappy with what other people are promoting as their preferred playstyle, and so your solution to that is to promote your playstyle?
    (13)

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