No More Big Pulls in Dungeons

[CazzT]

No, just.. no. As a tank myself, if I see a healer instantly throw all his heals my way if I drop a couple % in HP I know it's a bad one. You can easily let tanks drop to 10%-ish and get them to full with a single Essential Dignity and DPS in the meantime. This way you are contributing way more to the run than by just sitting back and trying to keep everyone at 100%.

Besides - as a WAR main I can easily heal myself up to full every 30 seconds with NF in large pulls. So if you barely keep me alive inbetween in favor of your own DPS - that is a job well done. And that is what I have in mind when I chain my cooldowns.

If you ever let a tank drop to 10% before throwing a heal on them, you're worse than a healer that doesn't DPS. With latency and other factors, 10% is just asking for a wipe.

[Hash_Browns]

If you ever let a tank drop to 10% before throwing a heal on them, you're worse than a healer that doesn't DPS. With latency and other factors, 10% is just asking for a wipe.

It's really not bad to allow your tank to be at low HP as long as you don't let them die. You don't need to keep your tank constantly topped.

[EnigmaticDodo]

It's really not bad to allow your tank to be at low HP as long as you don't let them die. You don't need to keep your tank constantly topped.

If you've seen anything in this thread so far, this is a contentious view point lmao. If you can keep your tank alive is all that matters to me!

[Hash_Browns]

If you've seen anything in this thread so far, this is a contentious view point lmao. If you can keep your tank alive is all that matters to me!

I use to play MTG a bunch when I was younger, and I think the same rule applies to this game, as the rule I was told for MTG.
"The only HP that matters is the last one."

[Sebazy]

They are in Shadowbringers, and many mobs hit like a truck, as well. I'm not even arguing against the latter; you're talking to someone that was a chronic stance dancer.

Perhaps we are looking at this from a different perspective? From my angle, I'm looking at Expert Roulettes. 1 or 2 heals + regen with Asylum/Tetra/Temperance roughly on CD per 2 pack pull.

Here's an example from the 3rd double trash pull in Akadaemia (The one with the large number of Onion mobs right after the two sharks) - 1 unneeded GCD heal that was merely me being overly cautious in a pull that was a minute start to finish. ~28k dps, 2.8k hps with 12% overhealing. 11 straight DPS GCDs (10 Holies, 1 Misery).

The overwhelming majority of Expert pulls are like this currently with only the first pull of Akadaemia being a standout currently. Prior to that, the last iffy pull that springs to mind was the long pull after the second boss in Hell's Lid with the 2 cleaving water snake things, and that was mostly due to the chance of a tank getting the group cleaved. Otherwise meh, my healing isn't being stretched by any degree by this trash.

I will be the first to admit though, leveling dungeons tend to hit significantly harder mostly through the virtue of it not being possible to overgear them to the same degree. Whilst I don't think SHB's leveling dungeons are as rough as HW's, the healer changes pre level cap didn't really do them any favours there either. Perhaps this is the angle your coming from? That'd certainly make more sense.

As far as the stance dancing thing goes, /shrug. I'd like to think that I know a thing or two about DPSing in dungeons. Once I make a proper effort in Grand Cosmos I should get my top 5 or so rank back.

If I don't have to use Benediction, then that's a good thing. It means everyone's gear was just in the right spot, the tank used all of their CDs to the best of their abilities, DPS were AoEing to their fullest potential, and I had plenty of time to throw out my own AoEs.

Why sit on it though? It's a measly 3 minutes now, you've got it up every other trash pull and it's super powerful. You don't have to let a tank drop to 10% or whatever to get good value from it.

Excogitation is specifically designed as a safety net; a 'what if' scenario. If it doesn't go off before the timer runs out, then once again, that's very much a good thing for the same reasons I mentioned as with not having to use Benediction.

Again, it's one of SCH's most powerful tank healing tools and the CD is even shorter. You're tying a hand behind your own back by not getting value out of it IMHO. Throw it on as the previous pack dies and it'll be most of the way through it's CD by the time the next pack is planted allowing an easy 2 hits per pull with it.

Let's say this is whatever the latest alliance raid may be, and I'm playing Scholar. If I'm wasting spells like Lustrate because I'm too tunnel-visioned to care about the tank until they drop below 50%, what will I have left for other party members that missed crucial mechanics and are seconds away from death during the middle of a DPS race? Adlo and Physick won't go off in time; not enough for multiple people.

That was my last Copied Factory run. Difference was, I saved my emergency spells and helped prevent a wipe.

I'm not hugely keen on this approach mostly because particularly in the current 24 man, there's a point where you end up spending so much of your time and effort focusing on saving the 'bads' from the bad that at best you're costing yourself GCDs and at worst, you're diverting your own attention away from mechanics coming your way. I'll merrily bail out someone who's worth saving, but at the risk of sounding utterly horrible, most of these people repeatedly failing mechanics in Factory just aren't worth saving. It's sadly more efficient to just keep DPSing and raise them as Swiftcast or downtime allows.

We're not even talking about Savage or EX. This is a thread about dungeons. Besides, Yoshida himself confirmed years ago that healer DPS isn't a factor in raids.

Please keep in mind that he confirmed this during a raid tier which REQUIRED healer DPS to clear in the time that it did.

Please don't read this as me having a go btw <3 Healer DPS in dungeons is always an interesting topic imho and other peoples views are appreciated even if they don't align with my own.

I use to play MTG a bunch when I was younger, and I think the same rule applies to this game, as the rule I was told for MTG.
"The only HP that matters is the last one."

Whilst technically true, it's just not that simple once you add in the human element. With a tank that you know and share trust with? Sure, there might be gains to be made there. But with a pug tank you're just as likely to end up with them dropping their rotation and cooldowns in a panic resulting in a pretty sizeable net loss overall.

There is honestly little need to let a tank go super low. I aim for around 30-40% but still have a world top 10 dungeon DPS ranking (And hopefully top 5 once I pull my finger out and work on a decent Grand Cosmos run). There's far more to be gained by pre dotting, thoughtful CD usage and aggressive Holy usage/movement. If I really wanted to try and push for higher ranking I'd be reaching for a DNC/NIN out of the FC rather than trying to wring it out of the poor tank's HP bar

[CazzT]

It's really not bad to allow your tank to be at low HP as long as you don't let them die. You don't need to keep your tank constantly topped.

Except that more often than not, healers that follow this mentality "it's ok for tank hp to be low" cause wipes because they aren't healing the tank in time to prevent the tank from dying. If I see my hp regularly staying below 50% before I get a heal, I start pulling smaller. I don't enjoy dragging out runs because the healer should be on their BLM instead of their WHM.

[Rilifane]

Except that more often than not, healers that follow this mentality "it's ok for tank hp to be low" cause wipes because they aren't healing the tank in time to prevent the tank from dying. If I see my hp regularly staying below 50% before I get a heal, I start pulling smaller. I don't enjoy dragging out runs because the healer should be on their BLM instead of their WHM.

I would but unfortunately SE wants 2 dps and 1 healer for a dungeon, not 3 dps :P

Jests aside, dropping below 50% doesn't mean you're in danger. That's something best decided seperately with each case.
I had paper tanks and one GCD was enough to bring them from a comfortable 70%+ to danger zone. No choice left but to babysit.

On the other hand, if I have a tank who knows what he's doing he'll definitely drop below 50% a couple of times and may even stay there for some time without being in any real danger. There's a difference between low HP and actually being in danger.
If I can finish off some mobs before needing to heal, I'd rather kill them and then heal instead of healing and leaving more mobs alive while doing it.
If I can finish my cast before needing to heal, I'll do that.
If I can push back healing for a couple of seconds until an oGCD is coming up instead of doing it inefficiently through Cure II/ Bene II/ Adlo, I'll do that.

I heal as neccessary to keep everyone alive and if healing isn't neccessary yet, I see no reason to babysit. With a decent tank less than 50% HP usually isn't risky at all.
If I have to heal more to keep the tank out of danger, so be it. But if I don't, I won't. Simple.

[Hash_Browns]

Except that more often than not, healers that follow this mentality "it's ok for tank hp to be low" cause wipes because they aren't healing the tank in time to prevent the tank from dying. If I see my hp regularly staying below 50% before I get a heal, I start pulling smaller. I don't enjoy dragging out runs because the healer should be on their BLM instead of their WHM.

Healers DPSing and knowing when to heal are better healers then healers that constantly top off the tank, and make the runs that much faster.

[CazzT]

Healers DPSing and knowing when to heal are better healers then healers that constantly top off the tank, and make the runs that much faster.

Which is not counter to what I said. So we're in agreement on this point, at least.

As Rilifane pointed out, it really is a case by case basis. I've just seen too many cases of me dropping below 50% and dying because the Healer seems to have forgotten that they're not a DPS role.