Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

[Kabooa]

Buffing BLM isn't necessarily the answer. Constantly buffing jobs leads to power creep which is not desirable either. Nerfs don't feel good but they're just as important as buffs in balancing.

This.

Get rid of the raise and it'll be basically fine after the ranged get tuned up a bit.

[Myon88]

I don't mind losing raise if it'll settle the debate once and for all, even though I personally enjoy playing the role of raise caster. I like having more responsibility and control over how fast we progress a fight as a dps, so I don't think it's a bad thing for jobs to have niches in this game. It gives the different jobs character, even if it means some people suffer if their playstyle doesn't align with their preferred job's niche. Red mage is the best in progression bar done, black mage is a lock for speedruns, and smn can flexibly fill both roles if you're willing to lower your standards a bit.

I mean there's no reason raise has to be viewed as a 'caster' thing making it about blm vs rdm/smn (and even that's only if you buy into 1 caster comps). It's more like the two dps jobs that can raise just happen to be casters by chance. If they gave some melees a CPR skill that raised people or something, would people still be focusing on red mage and summoner so much?

Anyway, that's besides the point. The real issue to consider is that if raise didn't exist, it would mean that rdps balance between the 3 casters would start looking a lot closer to what it looks like for the ranged. I wonder if black mages are ready to accept that? Either black mage will take a massive dps nerf to fall in line with machinist, or summoner and red mage will be buffed to its level. It might even be the case that red mage does more rdps than black mage when that day comes.

If that ever happens, I hope the narrative won't shift to some other excuse, like "Red mage is an easier job so it still deserves to do less damage" or something about everlasting flight again (lol). Like I mentioned awhile ago, there are 10+ reasons why black mages are unpopular in groups, and raise/rdm/smn is just one of them. If you take raise away and black mages still can't compete for a spot on an even playing field, you'll see people realize what the other reasons are really quick.

[Kabooa]

I wonder if black mages are ready to accept that?.

You mean, the status quo we've had other than Alphascape and this tier? I think we'll handle it with a tad bit more grace than the Summoners who lose their raise and start losing to Machinists.

[Miminming]

if raise is taken away from SMN and RDM and their rdps is on par with BLM is justified (unlike the current SMN which almost everbody agreed overpowered), BLM will probably whine about their casting time and no mobility (which they actually have more than RDM), everlasting, titan shield and bla bla bla until in the end they have more rdps than the other...

(Seriously though who decided pure dps should be the top in rdps... adps i understand but rdps?)

[CrashofZenki]

(Seriously though who decided pure dps should be the top in rdps... adps i understand but rdps?)

Yeah... I dont get that either. Seems like not much thought was placed behind that decision.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

rDPS on FFlogs over the entire tier for E4S (Titan) at the 99th percentile. BLM, MNK, SAM are still higher than SMN in a movement heavy fight.

It's not really a "movement intensive" fight once you're past the initial first phase. Once you hit titan maximum, it's literally a turret fight for BLM and it's also one that allows BLM to pad damage better than SMN with stacking multiple Fouls for healer gaols (you can do 3x Fouls on each set). It's the same reason why SMN ends up looking better in e1s, because BoP has an 8y radius allowing you to hit all 4 meteor orbs during FBT.

The true test will be ultimate imo

[Miminming]

If you want to consider balance around ultimate, raise shouldnt have tax on it, you wont be able to clear in a situation where caster need to do raise, especially when the ultimate is still revelant.

[xxPheNoMeNa]

If you want to consider balance around ultimate, raise shouldnt have tax on it, you wont be able to clear in a situation where caster need to do raise, especially when the ultimate is still revelant.

That statement is the furthest thing from the truth, and anyone with extensive experience clearing ultimate would agree with me. Ultimate, at least with last expansion, never had harsh DPS checks. They were designed as mechanic checks. Raise is extremely valuable in ultimate, and I've had several clears that came off the back of caster raise existing to recover from mechanical mistakes (especially when it's a healer death and the other healer has to focus on healing during raid wide damage).

[Miminming]

That statement is the furthest thing from the truth, and anyone with extensive experience clearing ultimate would agree with me. Ultimate, at least with last expansion, never had harsh DPS checks. They were designed as mechanic checks. Raise is extremely valuable in ultimate, and I've had several clears that came off the back of caster raise existing to recover from mechanical mistakes (especially when it's a healer death and the other healer has to focus on healing during raid wide damage).

When did you get your clear? Is it within the patch they come out? If you clear it in later patch (even just .1 patch above) dps check get lamer, either that or your group good good dps or my group is not as good as i though (i remember 0.2% so many time...)

[xxPheNoMeNa]

When did you get your clear? Is it within the patch they come out? If you clear it in later patch (even just .1 patch above) dps check get lamer, either that or your group good good dps or my group is not as good as i though (i remember 0.2% so many time...)

My first UWU clear was 9 days after release, and I have 20 or so uploaded clears (I have a few more not uploaded) before you had access to better gear. UCoB I wasn't subbed when it actually released but I did clear it (and multiple times after) before 345 gear was available, so I still had the same item level as anyone else in 4.1, and even the SMN nerfs on top of it.

And if you don't believe me, then here:
https://www.fflogs.com/character/id/...&mode=detailed
https://www.fflogs.com/character/id/...&mode=detailed