Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

[HyperiusUltima]

This is why I've said many a time here, on discord and elsewhere that this is not a matter of SMN vs BLM, but the bigger picture with all jobs in mind regardless of whether job roles are shared with us or not.

Of the jobs that received increases which specifically included all Ranged and RDM, none were lifted up to the extent that Summoner was. Bringing awareness of this was not a call for nerfing SMN, but for one to show cause for concern in particular to the jobs still lagging considerably behind.

The big picture is important. SE can go even further with improving balance globally. They have said they will be continuously making adjustments and I hope they will make the right calls.

Given their track record...uh, I don't know. They tried to make a step in the right direction, but given that we got Healer Layoffs in the form of boredom, Homogenized Tanks that actually work, and DPS Balance Disparity I'm reminded too well of how Stormblood was balanced horribly. Given how SE has worked before, if they don't talk about a job for months at a time(mind you, they've stayed silent on the radar regarding healers because they're worried about backlash) like how in Stormblood MCH, DRK, SAM, RDM, and WHM were largely ignored despite players speaking out to fix the problems, I feel like there's a layer of misplaced conception on the development team's end.

What they generally focus on is accessibility and the casual end, and that has literally been the story of 5.0. Balance and changes globally to DPS as well as how classes play and feel since they ran into issues in both Heavensward and Stormblood with balancing raid synergies. What I believe they should be making strides towards is to actually listen to the people who play at high-end outside of influencers, namely Savage since that is where real challenge is for your job and your capability as a player(especially healers, because they've been pouring craploads of feedback on both AST and SCH since Day 1). "But what about the casual side where I don't care about Savage?" people may ask who are reading this.

Right now the jobs are balanced in a way that all jobs are capable of going through MSQ with their current kits. Adjusting potencies and QoL for Savage Raiding will not affect Casual Players in any way unless they pull a fast one like they did with making NIN's Ninjutsu GCD, which changes the feel of the job. Even then, it's an adjustment people may have to get used to to understand whether it's better or worse than before.

[AbelArchaniEA]

This is why I've said many a time here, on discord and elsewhere that this is not a matter of SMN vs BLM, but the bigger picture with all jobs in mind regardless of whether job roles are shared with us or not.

Of the jobs that received increases which specifically included all Ranged and RDM, none were lifted up to the extent that Summoner was. Bringing awareness of this was not a call for nerfing SMN, but for one to show cause for concern in particular to the jobs still lagging considerably behind.

The big picture is important. SE can go even further with improving balance globally. They have said they will be continuously making adjustments and I hope they will make the right calls.

They told us SMN would get a big increase in damage. You can't compare the degree of difficulty between RDM and SMN or even MCH so its justified according to SE. Of course they will make adjustments but this thread is really just a rant. This thread is not going to sway SE one bit as they will make adjustments based on their data. The changes will come so people just need to chill.

[Rika007]

They told us SMN would get a big increase in damage. You can't compare the degree of difficulty between RDM and SMN or even MCH so its justified according to SE. Of course they will make adjustments but this thread is really just a rant. This thread is not going to sway SE one bit as they will make adjustments based on their data. The changes will come so people just need to chill.

That's like stating that SE doesn't in anyway listen to feedback at all, when the devs themselves state to leave all feedback here on the OF. And as changes so far in 5.X to Monk, Ninja, Bard, Summoner and Samurai proves, long thread's like this ABSOLUTELY have an effect on the devs.

[VenKitsune]

That's like stating that SE doesn't in anyway listen to feedback at all, when the devs themselves state to leave all feedback here on the OF. And as changes so far in 5.X to Monk, Ninja, Bard, Summoner and Samurai proves, long thread's like this ABSOLUTELY have an effect on the devs.

Where did they say that?

I mean, you say that, but in the tank forums people have been asking for changes for many things for months...and yet nothing but silence from SE. Even something as innocent as changing back the GNB sound effects to what they were on release, that even had a straw poll with overwhelming support. Did we see it even mentioned in the 5.1 live letter? Let alone the patch notes themselves? Of course not.

SE looks at data 99% of the time, only making changes if there is a universal outrage about something on the forums, otherwise this is just a place for discussion, not feedback.

[Myon88]

rDPS on FFlogs over the entire tier for E4S (Titan) at the 99th percentile. BLM, MNK, SAM are still higher than SMN in a movement heavy fight.

These charts affirm my belief that the state of the game now is objectively more balanced than it was at the start of the expansion (of course, it's also far from perfect). As long as we're looking at rdps (raid dps), having as many jobs as possible clustered together in output is a good thing. Rdps does not differentiate between a mega buffer like dancer or a pure dps like black mage, and in an ideal world, every single job would have roughly equivalent rdps. If all jobs in the game were clustered in that space between black mage and ninja, that would be a spread of no more than ~5% between the highest and lowest, which I'd consider a fantastic result.

In fact, as long as it's about rdps, there would be no issue if the positions of, for example, black mage and ninja were reversed on that chart. Ask yourself, is there any reason black mage and samurai need to be on top for rdps? That's an outdated and biased holdover from the time we only looked at raw dps, where of course jobs like that were on top in those metrics. We might've gotten used to seeing that, but with rdps it's anyone's game. It's a much more holistic metric, and like I said, as long as we're looking at a 5% spread at most, I'm satisfied with the result whoever is the lucky winner.

So clearly there's work that still needs to be done. As you can see, summoner (and ninja during the prior mini-patch) have been adjusted to conform with the pack. Assuming the data in the chart is conclusive, red mage could stand to receive a little more help, and all three ranged jobs need a serious helping hand. If you think me joking about reparations wasn't funny, what do you consider the reversal of fortunes jobs like blm and the ranged are showing now? Relative to past expansions. Things like that don't happen out of nowhere, no one has gotten as fat off the spoils of war as blm right now.

[Nemekh]

They told us SMN would get a big increase in damage. You can't compare the degree of difficulty between RDM and SMN or even MCH so its justified according to SE. Of course they will make adjustments but this thread is really just a rant. This thread is not going to sway SE one bit as they will make adjustments based on their data. The changes will come so people just need to chill.

This thread isn't a rant. I would know given that I started it.

SE have shown that they do take the greater state of things into account, even things posted on the English language forums and not just the Japanese side. Many things here they have paid attention to, fixed and addressed. For feedback oh did they listen across all regions. For SMN every single abuse case I listed before 5.0 release, even the really obscure ones, were made impossible on Shadowbringers release. Every Summoner bug gets addressed quickly after being reported, to the point of the servers being brought down for a hotfix. Name one job more bug-ridden over the history of the game.

You're still talking as if you understand the nature of things when truly you do not. As per usual, your posts in this thread and elsewhere contribute nothing of value.

[Nemekh]

Where did they say that?

They mention it often during Sampos, PLLs, anniversary streams, interviews and talks over at Fanfests. The OFs absolutely are their go-to for our feedback. Even if I do believe that coverage of the non-JP forums is to be desired at times.

[ErzaScarlet77]

BUFF BLM (i play smn too but lately ive been enjoying blm more)

[SaberMaxwell]

Buffing BLM isn't necessarily the answer. Constantly buffing jobs leads to power creep which is not desirable either. Nerfs don't feel good but they're just as important as buffs in balancing.

[Akiudo]

Buffing BLM isn't necessarily the answer. Constantly buffing jobs leads to power creep which is not desirable either. Nerfs don't feel good but they're just as important as buffs in balancing.

especially as buffing blm probably would lead to cries of "buff samurai" which would follow "buff every other melee, samurai is too strong" all of that while still ignoring the seriously sad state of the physical ranged role as a whole.