Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

**Madoka** · 11-06-2019 08:33 AM

The last few pages citing fflogs have all been using "All fights" for the curated dps instead of looking at each individual fight. You cannot do this because some SMNs have extremely padded E1S runs where they phoenix the meteor orb phases and the fight ends just after giving them I think an extra 1000-1400rdps over whoever is just behind them. Making the overall curve favor smn since in every other fight they're about 100-400rdps below blm/sam from what I remember. Obviously can't check at the moment but it's a number skewing the overall average that people seem to think applies to every fight.

Originally Posted by Helena480

Sorry if this post was a mess.

RDM rDPS in most fights from what I recall is about 200-500 behind SMN. Which is about where it was in 5.0 most of the time too, except now both classes are pushing much bigger numbers. If this were still the 2000 gap between smn/rdm and blm I would understand the concern but honestly it's not that big of a gap so there's no need to feel concerned playing what you want to play.

**Akiudo** · 11-06-2019 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by Madoka

The last few pages citing fflogs have all been using "All fights" for the curated dps instead of looking at each individual fight. You cannot do this because some SMNs have extremely padded E1S runs where they phoenix the meteor orb phases and the fight ends just after giving them I think an extra 1000-1400rdps over whoever is just behind them. Making the overall curve favor smn since in every other fight they're about 100-400rdps below blm/sam from what I remember. Obviously can't check at the moment but it's a number skewing the overall average that people seem to think applies to every fight.

can't speak for the rest but as for me at least i use 95% parses as max allways gets skewed one way or another and is also generally bad to compare different classes in the sense that 1 class may have several hundred dps swings one way or another completly outside your control while other classes do basically the exact same damage every single try if played the same and can tell you that even e1 excluded summoner up to 95% is basically equal to blm or even above, like 120 higher than blm on levi and 20 below on titan or something like that, e2 is the one fight where blm shines but thats basically a training dummy, if that counts as a "fight" (as far as mechanics actually affecting classes go) than e1 has every right to count as well, padding be damned. you can make the argument that at max parses this doesn't hold true anymore, though in truth we are lacking the data for that conclusion because while blm indeed didn't get changed it had months to reach its top parses, smn had a week, but 95% means literally 19 out of 20 groups would be better of with a summoner than a blackmage

**Madoka** · 11-06-2019 08:49 AM

E1S offers 3 chances for quite easy padding on smn vs every other fight being all single target which is why even at lower percentiles SMN can still easily be on top. Just the biggest pads uploaded are such a huge gap that it affects the overall metric if you sort that way.

**Akiudo** · 11-06-2019 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by Madoka

E1S offers 3 chances for quite easy padding on smn vs every other fight being all single target which is why even at lower percentiles SMN can still easily be on top. Just the biggest pads uploaded are such a huge gap that it affects the overall metric if you sort that way.

and e2s is such an outlier in just how much of a training dummy the boss generally is we probably won't see another fight quite like it in all of eden, i do very well see reason why "all parses" is bad, as padding through e1 is very much real, which is why i flat out stated that i look at it in a per fight basis and smn wins out in both levi and titan in 19 out of 20 cases while offering the rezz as a bonus, saying "e1 as a fight makes it bad to use "all fights" as a metric is a fair point, but one should also accept that e2 as a fight is playing to blackmages strengths to a degree like no other fight has done since stormblood release and "zero downtime, absolutely minimal movement, with the group bending over a bit just so you can parse better basically no movement at all" is just as much an outlier for a fight as a fight with several chances to pad on adds, which again is why i cited both e3 and 4, cause these both fall way closer into the realm of "regular fight you will see more often"

**CrazyAce** · 11-06-2019 02:15 PM

I still laugh at these balance talks, as if DPS actually matters outside of clear times. Any class can complete any content, in any composition. There are no hard DPS checks that are even worth mentioning unless most of the party/raid is dead.

What really matters about SMN is how the job's rotation is easy to understand yet still a hot mess with conflicting abilities, such as Egi Assaults and Trances being part of mutually exclusive rotations that cannot be interrupted without seriously messing up your rotation or clipping heavily.

**Garash** · 11-06-2019 04:38 PM

I absolutely agree with the OP of this thread. It is deeply upsetting to other casters that SMNs are contributing the same amount of damage as BLMs without having to pay "the raise tax." (plus they have everlasting flight)

**RadicalPesto** · 11-06-2019 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by CrazyAce

I still laugh at these balance talks, as if DPS actually matters outside of clear times. Any class can complete any content, in any composition. There are no hard DPS checks that are even worth mentioning unless most of the party/raid is dead.

"People shouldn't give balance feedback unless classes straight up can't clear content" isn't actually as clever of a talking point as you think it is, and its not a perspective shared by the developers of this game, given that every class that got buffed this patch could clear all content just fine, yet balance changes still were made.

**CKNovel** · 11-06-2019 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by CrazyAce

I still laugh at these balance talks, as if DPS actually matters outside of clear times. Any class can complete any content, in any composition. There are no hard DPS checks that are even worth mentioning unless most of the party/raid is dead.

Late to the party aren't you?
This argument just encourages the idea of healers not DPSing since 'there is no hard DPS check, DPS doesn't matter!'.

We already argued that a really bad group using the toptier damage dealer would have less trouble clearing content than an incredibly good experienced raiding group with the bad jobs.
MNK and BLM were almost a free pass to the savages back in 5.0, you could simply ignore Thunder as a BLM and still pull a better DPS than 3/4 of the ranged, how fair was that?
I remember about a FFLog were a group barely passed E4S because of the highest DPS composition while if one played a DNC/BRD/RDM/NIN/SMN that clear would have not happened.

Also, Alexander Ultimate says Hi.
I'm curious to know about your raiding experience considering you don't even think about Ultimate content that is about to drop in less that a week.

**remiff** · 11-06-2019 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by Garash

I absolutely agree with the OP of this thread. It is deeply upsetting to other casters that SMNs are contributing the same amount of damage as BLMs without having to pay "the raise tax." (plus they have everlasting flight)

dont abuse,
blm outdps smn and red mage with 3000 rdps difference during a entire raid tier,
now summoner is not op, it is slightly too strong, and a good blm still wins at dps
the fact that he is so strong is not really his dps is his mobility.

and take as an example everlasting flight is a big joke, since it's a little situational regen that is not always effective .

**Shiroe** · 11-07-2019 02:07 AM

dont compare Blm from other tiers to assess Blm now.., Blm has had huge issues throughout every expansion

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