The Future of the "Ranged" Role - Feedback for 5.1 Onward.

[HyperiusUltima]

It’s hard to see where 95% is Since the site doesn’t really show that on Ranking, but generally Raise only has value when you’re progressing. Being able to chain Rez helps speed up prog, but in clear runs that utility sees very little if not any use due to the condition someone must have died.

The worst of it is that to keep RDM from being devalued any further by damage, they need to just get rid of Raise on Casters. Sure it’s good for prog, but SMN literally outshines it in this regard outside of mass rezzing(which is already a pain when RDM has to do this while Healers are keeping Tanks up). Reworking their raid buff to not decay and actually be a more baseline buff akin to Devotion would work wonders in increasing RDM’s rDPS.

As for SMN needing a DPS drop, they need to revert the DoT potencies on Bio and Miasma, as well as reduce Garuda’s DoT by a couple ticks or by 10 potency to keep SMN from stepping on people’s toes since their pet damage increased this patch with Egi Assault. The other option is to reduce Ruin IV potency by 20, given that spell in particular(proc’d by Egi Assault) is 300 potency from 260 and do a check on Egi Assault by either making it single charge or reducing its potency slightly for 2 Charges.

Melee as they are now though seem to be balanced just fine around each other, but we still have to do a check on utility so that they’re balanced. When comparing Melee to Ranged, we have to attribute potential downtime that’s forced by fight design, since there usually is a form of it in almost every raid. That’s how the difference is supposed to be since Ranged have full uptime when dealing with an AoE whereas Melee have to disengage from the boss. Having a ~500-700 DPS difference between Melee and Ranged would be fine I’d imagine, but it might not be depending.

Now I have a more pressing question: How do we fix the DPS that are -1000 from the higher Damage Jobs? Bringing them up would be ok by potency, but then you risk powercreep. Maybe adjusting buff utility to compensate(as in increased damage buffs, longer duration, etc.)?

[Akiudo]

It’s hard to see where 95% is Since the site doesn’t really show that on Ranking, but generally Raise only has value when you’re progressing. Being able to chain Rez helps speed up prog, but in clear runs that utility sees very little if not any use due to the condition someone must have died.

The worst of it is that to keep RDM from being devalued any further by damage, they need to just get rid of Raise on Casters. Sure it’s good for prog, but SMN literally outshines it in this regard outside of mass rezzing(which is already a pain when RDM has to do this while Healers are keeping Tanks up). Reworking their raid buff to not decay and actually be a more baseline buff akin to Devotion would work wonders in increasing RDM’s rDPS.

As for SMN needing a DPS drop, they need to revert the DoT potencies on Bio and Miasma, as well as reduce Garuda’s DoT by a couple ticks or by 10 potency to keep SMN from stepping on people’s toes since their pet damage increased this patch with Egi Assault. The other option is to reduce Ruin IV potency by 20, given that spell in particular(proc’d by Egi Assault) is 300 potency from 260 and do a check on Egi Assault by either making it single charge or reducing its potency slightly for 2 Charges.

Melee as they are now though seem to be balanced just fine around each other, but we still have to do a check on utility so that they’re balanced. When comparing Melee to Ranged, we have to attribute potential downtime that’s forced by fight design, since there usually is a form of it in almost every raid. That’s how the difference is supposed to be since Ranged have full uptime when dealing with an AoE whereas Melee have to disengage from the boss. Having a ~500-700 DPS difference between Melee and Ranged would be fine I’d imagine, but it might not be depending.

Now I have a more pressing question: How do we fix the DPS that are -1000 from the higher Damage Jobs? Bringing them up would be ok by potency, but then you risk powercreep. Maybe adjusting buff utility to compensate(as in increased damage buffs, longer duration, etc.)?

you can quite easily see where 95% is, just look at the statistics page (the one with the bars, don't know which one that was by name, fflogs is down again...) and set the "percentile" to 95%, also set it to patch 5.1 since otherwise it gets muddled with too much stuff thats pre patch and it literally tells you for the last 2 weeks (or every day since patch dropped in our case) exactly on point just what a 95% of any given class did, yes, thats "only" 95% for the last two weeks, but as gear generally goes up (well not anymore) last 2 weeks are a pretty good metric still, definitely better than max where even the best of the best still have their god run be 300 dps higher then everything else they ever did.

also about comparing melee to ranged looking at potential downtime, thats exactly the point, WITH downtime with what i proposed still literally every melee and caster sans redmage would be above the physical ranged at the absolute top (and probably slightly below in the 75->down range), that way the whole "mobility" has an actual value, being better at lower percentiles in this case while at the absolute top melees and casters would still get a leg up.

about the fact that rezz is not really that great outside of progression i agree, its still the most usefull utility the game offers though and really, movement as redmage isn't hard, more slightly inconvinient so i stand by "having a bit harder time moving is a fair 'rezz tax" when comparing physicals to rdm. (and yes, i mained rdm for a time) you also have to see that no matter what, it does need to have at least some tax, if redmage being just 300 above physicals would be considered fair (and the example that was given saw redmage ahead by 400) than blm would by default have to be a good 600, rather 700 above them which than aswell goes for samurai which than....

and yes, the melees in and on themselves are pretty well balanced, which was mostly my point, "fixing" them is not a priority , but if we reached the point where the physical ranged where 600 from the top in an "average movement fight" (which really is all titan is for a melee, its definitely harder than the other turns in eden but its not ultra high movement most of the time) thats when getting the gap between the melees smaller would take priority in my opinion, because getting them any higher would indeed put them above the melees which they shouldn't be (at 95, being above the melees at 75 and basically equal to the melees at 95% (you gotta see that the weakest melee is still 500 dps below sam)i say is perfectly fair game as this is the point one can reach through skill instead of simply luck (in a "didn't have to do any mechanics way)

[ForteNightshade]

I think that if SE wants to keep this idea of "support tax" they should make the party buff 5% to guarantee that bringing a ranged is better overall for rdps. This also lets them really give them unusual support tools (defensive or otherwise) rather than strictly offensive support.

I'm a bit iffy on this because it only reinforces the Range exist in parties not because their respective roles are valued but SE essentially saying, "You're taking a Range DPS, and you're going to like it!" That said, if they had more unique support aspects beyond damage. Maybe that would make up for it.

[Galvuu]

I'm a bit iffy on this because it only reinforces the Range exist in parties not because their respective roles are valued but SE essentially saying, "You're taking a Range DPS, and you're going to like it!" That said, if they had more unique support aspects beyond damage. Maybe that would make up for it.

I mean, the goal of a raw dps buff is the same. It's to make it so that taking a ranged is the best choice. And that's ok, all I meant was that if we want to force one of each role being present, we could go all the way and get creative with it.
I actually miss the old ARR days (and even Gordias/Midas) where you needed silences/slows/binds/etc.
We got rid of that type of utility to not force jobs on comps- since that basically meant you needed some configurations for certain fights- but if we want to, in an ideal world, enforce the presence of every role, this could be an avenue to bring that back.
If every melee has a bind/stun, every ranged a bind and every caster a slow/silence, we can work those things back into the fights.

Ofc you can argue (correctly) that maybe we should not strive to make the presence of every role mandatory- that fights should be clear-able with 4x melee or whatever. In that case, my idea falls flat, but that 1% seems to suggest SE would wish for every dps subrole to be represented.

[Akiudo]

I mean, the goal of a raw dps buff is the same. It's to make it so that taking a ranged is the best choice. And that's ok, all I meant was that if we want to force one of each role being present, we could go all the way and get creative with it.
I actually miss the old ARR days (and even Gordias/Midas) where you needed silences/slows/binds/etc.
We got rid of that type of utility to not force jobs on comps- since that basically meant you needed some configurations for certain fights- but if we want to, in an ideal world, enforce the presence of every role, this could be an avenue to bring that back.
If every melee has a bind/stun, every ranged a bind and every caster a slow/silence, we can work those things back into the fights.

Ofc you can argue (correctly) that maybe we should not strive to make the presence of every role mandatory- that fights should be clear-able with 4x melee or whatever. In that case, my idea falls flat, but that 1% seems to suggest SE would wish for every dps subrole to be represented.

the problem, and why maybe the goal but not the effect of a raw dps buff is the same is that it simply feels bad.

for all their "simplicity" or whatever you want to call it literally no one takes a ranged with them because they are usefull, i mentioned in another thread i clear eden through party finder, honest to heart i'm telling you that were it not for the 1% buff i would exclude myself from partys, like no i would reroll or whatever, but stupid as it may sound even I dont want a ranged in my group and would rather run double caster if i had leveled and geared one

[Galvuu]

the problem, and why maybe the goal but not the effect of a raw dps buff is the same is that it simply feels bad.

for all their "simplicity" or whatever you want to call it literally no one takes a ranged with them because they are usefull, i mentioned in another thread i clear eden through party finder, honest to heart i'm telling you that where it not for the 1% buff i would exclude myself from partys, like no i would reroll or whatever, but stupid as it may sound even I dont want a ranged in my group and would rather run double caster if i had leveled and geared one

It's not optimal to replace the ranged player with a caster/melee though. Not right now, and it wasn't in 5.0 either.
I understand the frustration, and I do think the role is underpowered, but we're not at a point where it's a good idea to lock them out on any metric (not rdps, not safety, not utility).

And I was just musing about it. It wouldn't be too bad to double down on the support aspect and expect every group to run one (and design fights with their support in mind).

[Akiudo]

It's not optimal to replace the ranged player with a caster/melee though. Not right now, and it wasn't in 5.0 either.
I understand the frustration, and I do think the role is underpowered, but we're not at a point where it's a good idea to lock them out on any metric (not rdps, not safety, not utility).

And I was just musing about it. It wouldn't be too bad to double down on the support aspect and expect every group to run one (and design fights with their support in mind).

switching out myself (bard) on levi for a redmage of equal skill and gear would actually end up at roughly the same dps, maybe a loss of 50 dps and the redmage would bring a rezz with him, taking a blackmage at that level would actually push the group by around 200 dps and lets not even talk about summoner, yes, it would be mathematically optimal to replace me with a second caster (75 percentile)

[ShadowNyx3]

I mean, the goal of a raw dps buff is the same. It's to make it so that taking a ranged is the best choice. And that's ok, all I meant was that if we want to force one of each role being present, we could go all the way and get creative with it.
I actually miss the old ARR days (and even Gordias/Midas) where you needed silences/slows/binds/etc.
We got rid of that type of utility to not force jobs on comps- since that basically meant you needed some configurations for certain fights- but if we want to, in an ideal world, enforce the presence of every role, this could be an avenue to bring that back.
If every melee has a bind/stun, every ranged a bind and every caster a slow/silence, we can work those things back into the fights.

Ofc you can argue (correctly) that maybe we should not strive to make the presence of every role mandatory- that fights should be clear-able with 4x melee or whatever. In that case, my idea falls flat, but that 1% seems to suggest SE would wish for every dps subrole to be represented.

Striving to make one of each role the standard is the healthiest solution to balance problems. It is easier to balance utility across all dps classes to make each role viable and desirable than it is to balance damage potencies across the entire dps spectrum.

Consider a world in which all jobs have the same utility, thus you could take any composition you wanted into a fight, such as your example of four melee. Would this community that champions "dps is king" do anything other than 1) Take the four highest damaging classes (even with a reasonably small variance between top and bottom) or 2) Take the four easiest to play classes to avoid any problems that the encounter might create for a certain job? No, this community would certainly take the path of least resistance.

Blocking off utility balance and damage balance by role and making each role desirable in a raid means that the fourth raid spot can be dictated by group choice of whichever role makes sense for the group's skill set and the encounter. This does come with the requirement that the roles not become too disjointed by the variance in damage between them, because we want to make it so that the "dps is king" mindset doesn't take over and demand that fourth spot be damage over utility.

[HyperiusUltima]

Striving to make one of each role the standard is the healthiest solution to balance problems. It is easier to balance utility across all dps classes to make each role viable and desirable than it is to balance damage potencies across the entire dps spectrum.

Consider a world in which all jobs have the same utility, thus you could take any composition you wanted into a fight, such as your example of four melee. Would this community that champions "dps is king" do anything other than 1) Take the four highest damaging classes (even with a reasonably small variance between top and bottom) or 2) Take the four easiest to play classes to avoid any problems that the encounter might create for a certain job? No, this community would certainly take the path of least resistance.

Blocking off utility balance and damage balance by role and making each role desirable in a raid means that the fourth raid spot can be dictated by group choice of whichever role makes sense for the group's skill set and the encounter. This does come with the requirement that the roles not become too disjointed by the variance in damage between them, because we want to make it so that the "dps is king" mindset doesn't take over and demand that fourth spot be damage over utility.

That’s kinda how it’s being played right now. SMN has the utility and damage output to outdo the Ranged by at least 1,000 rDPS on most fights. They even have Devotion and Phoenix’s 700 total potency Regen to back up their reason being there instead of a Ranged. SMN simply is too strong right now due to the utilities they bring vs. a mitigation(check the SMN complaint thread for the discussion I had with @Akiudo).

[ShadowNyx3]

That’s kinda how it’s being played right now. SMN has the utility and damage output to outdo the Ranged by at least 1,000 rDPS on most fights. They even have Devotion and Phoenix’s 700 total potency Regen to back up their reason being there instead of a Ranged. SMN simply is too strong right now due to the utilities they bring vs. a mitigation(check the SMN complaint thread for the discussion I had with @Akiudo).

Summoner or Red Mage would already have a spot for progression raiding because of the value of raise. That is absolutely nothing new. You are trying to inflate this issue by bringing up superlatives like Everlasting Flight and misunderstanding that Devotion is anything more than just a party damage buff that is already factored into raid dps. Additionally, in your OP you try to say that Summoner's mobility is infringing upon the Ranged "niche" of having full mobility which is both false and completely irrelevant.

You focus on Summoner because it was buffed the most, when in reality it's simply that the Ranged role was not buffed enough while both Summoner and Red Mage were boosted. If you run the risk of losing your spot in progression raid comp, it would be because the Ranged role's damage contribution (in the form of their raid damage and party bonus) along with their utility is seen as significantly worse than just bringing a second Raise caster or any combination of two Melee and a Black Mage with one Raise Caster.

The simple matter of fact is that the Ranged role lost their MP management utility and has not received adequate compensation in the form of damage and additional utility to compete with Melee and Casters. The MP management is the most egregious of the two in my opinion because it was legitimately mandatory unlike Raise which has never been required, just so useful that it would be a detriment not to have it available. That leaves us with only one role utility that clearly shines above the rest that takes the full brunt of these balance discussions.