The Future of the "Ranged" Role - Feedback for 5.1 Onward.

[Galvuu]

I'm a bit iffy on this because it only reinforces the Range exist in parties not because their respective roles are valued but SE essentially saying, "You're taking a Range DPS, and you're going to like it!" That said, if they had more unique support aspects beyond damage. Maybe that would make up for it.

I mean, the goal of a raw dps buff is the same. It's to make it so that taking a ranged is the best choice. And that's ok, all I meant was that if we want to force one of each role being present, we could go all the way and get creative with it.
I actually miss the old ARR days (and even Gordias/Midas) where you needed silences/slows/binds/etc.
We got rid of that type of utility to not force jobs on comps- since that basically meant you needed some configurations for certain fights- but if we want to, in an ideal world, enforce the presence of every role, this could be an avenue to bring that back.
If every melee has a bind/stun, every ranged a bind and every caster a slow/silence, we can work those things back into the fights.

Ofc you can argue (correctly) that maybe we should not strive to make the presence of every role mandatory- that fights should be clear-able with 4x melee or whatever. In that case, my idea falls flat, but that 1% seems to suggest SE would wish for every dps subrole to be represented.

[Akiudo]

I mean, the goal of a raw dps buff is the same. It's to make it so that taking a ranged is the best choice. And that's ok, all I meant was that if we want to force one of each role being present, we could go all the way and get creative with it.
I actually miss the old ARR days (and even Gordias/Midas) where you needed silences/slows/binds/etc.
We got rid of that type of utility to not force jobs on comps- since that basically meant you needed some configurations for certain fights- but if we want to, in an ideal world, enforce the presence of every role, this could be an avenue to bring that back.
If every melee has a bind/stun, every ranged a bind and every caster a slow/silence, we can work those things back into the fights.

Ofc you can argue (correctly) that maybe we should not strive to make the presence of every role mandatory- that fights should be clear-able with 4x melee or whatever. In that case, my idea falls flat, but that 1% seems to suggest SE would wish for every dps subrole to be represented.

the problem, and why maybe the goal but not the effect of a raw dps buff is the same is that it simply feels bad.

for all their "simplicity" or whatever you want to call it literally no one takes a ranged with them because they are usefull, i mentioned in another thread i clear eden through party finder, honest to heart i'm telling you that were it not for the 1% buff i would exclude myself from partys, like no i would reroll or whatever, but stupid as it may sound even I dont want a ranged in my group and would rather run double caster if i had leveled and geared one

[Galvuu]

the problem, and why maybe the goal but not the effect of a raw dps buff is the same is that it simply feels bad.

for all their "simplicity" or whatever you want to call it literally no one takes a ranged with them because they are usefull, i mentioned in another thread i clear eden through party finder, honest to heart i'm telling you that where it not for the 1% buff i would exclude myself from partys, like no i would reroll or whatever, but stupid as it may sound even I dont want a ranged in my group and would rather run double caster if i had leveled and geared one

It's not optimal to replace the ranged player with a caster/melee though. Not right now, and it wasn't in 5.0 either.
I understand the frustration, and I do think the role is underpowered, but we're not at a point where it's a good idea to lock them out on any metric (not rdps, not safety, not utility).

And I was just musing about it. It wouldn't be too bad to double down on the support aspect and expect every group to run one (and design fights with their support in mind).

[Akiudo]

It's not optimal to replace the ranged player with a caster/melee though. Not right now, and it wasn't in 5.0 either.
I understand the frustration, and I do think the role is underpowered, but we're not at a point where it's a good idea to lock them out on any metric (not rdps, not safety, not utility).

And I was just musing about it. It wouldn't be too bad to double down on the support aspect and expect every group to run one (and design fights with their support in mind).

switching out myself (bard) on levi for a redmage of equal skill and gear would actually end up at roughly the same dps, maybe a loss of 50 dps and the redmage would bring a rezz with him, taking a blackmage at that level would actually push the group by around 200 dps and lets not even talk about summoner, yes, it would be mathematically optimal to replace me with a second caster (75 percentile)

[ShadowNyx3]

I mean, the goal of a raw dps buff is the same. It's to make it so that taking a ranged is the best choice. And that's ok, all I meant was that if we want to force one of each role being present, we could go all the way and get creative with it.
I actually miss the old ARR days (and even Gordias/Midas) where you needed silences/slows/binds/etc.
We got rid of that type of utility to not force jobs on comps- since that basically meant you needed some configurations for certain fights- but if we want to, in an ideal world, enforce the presence of every role, this could be an avenue to bring that back.
If every melee has a bind/stun, every ranged a bind and every caster a slow/silence, we can work those things back into the fights.

Ofc you can argue (correctly) that maybe we should not strive to make the presence of every role mandatory- that fights should be clear-able with 4x melee or whatever. In that case, my idea falls flat, but that 1% seems to suggest SE would wish for every dps subrole to be represented.

Striving to make one of each role the standard is the healthiest solution to balance problems. It is easier to balance utility across all dps classes to make each role viable and desirable than it is to balance damage potencies across the entire dps spectrum.

Consider a world in which all jobs have the same utility, thus you could take any composition you wanted into a fight, such as your example of four melee. Would this community that champions "dps is king" do anything other than 1) Take the four highest damaging classes (even with a reasonably small variance between top and bottom) or 2) Take the four easiest to play classes to avoid any problems that the encounter might create for a certain job? No, this community would certainly take the path of least resistance.

Blocking off utility balance and damage balance by role and making each role desirable in a raid means that the fourth raid spot can be dictated by group choice of whichever role makes sense for the group's skill set and the encounter. This does come with the requirement that the roles not become too disjointed by the variance in damage between them, because we want to make it so that the "dps is king" mindset doesn't take over and demand that fourth spot be damage over utility.

[Silver-Strider]

I mean, the goal of a raw dps buff is the same. It's to make it so that taking a ranged is the best choice. And that's ok, all I meant was that if we want to force one of each role being present, we could go all the way and get creative with it.
I actually miss the old ARR days (and even Gordias/Midas) where you needed silences/slows/binds/etc.
We got rid of that type of utility to not force jobs on comps- since that basically meant you needed some configurations for certain fights- but if we want to, in an ideal world, enforce the presence of every role, this could be an avenue to bring that back.
If every melee has a bind/stun, every ranged a bind and every caster a slow/silence, we can work those things back into the fights.

Ofc you can argue (correctly) that maybe we should not strive to make the presence of every role mandatory- that fights should be clear-able with 4x melee or whatever. In that case, my idea falls flat, but that 1% seems to suggest SE would wish for every dps subrole to be represented.

Halicarnassus had a required silence in O3S. I distinctly remember because PUGs sucked and I had to silence that more than once on my MNK back when AotD had a silence. It wasn't fun and honestly, I wouldn't bring that back unless all CC was made available t all jobs to make everyone equally responsible for a mechanic.