At 95th percentile in 5.1, BRD's total contribution is the lowest of all DPS

[Exiled_Tonberry]

And there goes AST, support, doing more damage than WHM and SCH.
Here we go again...

[FallenWings]

And there goes AST, support, doing more damage than WHM and SCH.
Here we go again...

Support should be doing the most rDPS. Otherwise whats the point of support? Why put in more effort from everyone to gain less than one person playing selfishly?

In an ideal world the classes that buff damage(and only have damage buff utility) > the classes without damage buffs.

[Akiudo]

Support should be doing the most rDPS. Otherwise whats the point of support? Why put in more effort from everyone to gain less than one person playing selfishly?

In an ideal world the classes that buff damage(and only have damage buff utility) > the classes without damage buffs.

thank you for that... i really don't get why people think all other things being equal buffing the group for lets say 1000 dps means you should personally do 1200 dps less, theres literally zero point to having damage buffs if you as a group would do more damage taking the person that doesn't have these buffs and simply hits a bit harder themselves.

Mind you, i still think Ast got overbuffed, half the difference between ast and whm would be plenty sufficient, but yes balancing can be a fickle thing and healer balance is still pretty good overall.

Are you trying to say Bard needs to be doing more DPS? Because it being a ranged caster that doesn't have to stand still to cast anything, it should be on the lowered end of the dps charts. Think it should sit right above dancer and under RDM.

while i'm not gonna go argue on the whole "what use is free movement if even when its usefull, i.e. the highest of movement fights you still do lower numbers" thing here i want to point out that the problem isn't say that bard is below casters. its that bard is (to take your redmage example) 880 dps or a good 6,5% below redmage, which while more restricted in movement also offers the ability to rezz, even chain rezz and throw a cure on someone in a pinch and considering the chain rezz value is vastly diminished but still there outside of progress raiding i would even say redmage could use another 100 dps themselves if we do perfect pipe dream balance so bard right now isn't just below redmage, its barely bein able to see it from down where it stands.

[Shurrikhan]

Support should be doing the most rDPS. Otherwise whats the point of support? Why put in more effort from everyone to gain less than one person playing selfishly?

In an ideal world the classes that buff damage(and only have damage buff utility) > the classes without damage buffs.

What? Seriously... what?

Do people still not understand what rDPS is? I mean, it's gotta be that or some hidden warrant telling us the 6% lead AST holds over WHM and SCH should being treated with no more concern than the 0.8% lead WHM holds over SCH... Or perhaps this "ideal world" just really is just one founded on the forcible removal of BLM, SAM, and MCH, and weakening of MNK, SMN, and RDM, all just to elevate DRG, NIN, DNC, and BRD? Are we really just looking for a far fewer competitive compositions than we had in Stormblood?

Contrary to what fflogs metrics may say, every raid-buff goes both ways. Not only does someone have to provide it, but someone also has to capitalize on it. The more personal dps you have, and the more control over its burst, the more you can do with those raid buffs. To say that unless you're throwing out rDPS abilities on CD you must somehow be contributing less effort than the people who bank their resources or vary their rotations beforehand to exploit those CDs is ridiculous. Both are compositionally dependent coordinated efforts.

Yes, perhaps ideally there should always be at least one or two buffers in a given party, but the ability to exploit each is every bit as essential. In some cases, where the buffers also have absurdly strong burst, the two will overlap and form a meta comp, but short of that an ideal balance will include a balance between or down a spectrum of buffers and exploiters at opposite extremes.

[Akiudo]

What? Seriously... what?

Do people still not understand what rDPS is? I mean, it's gotta be that or some hidden warrant telling us the 6% lead AST holds over WHM and SCH should being treated with no more concern than the 0.8% lead WHM holds over SCH... Or perhaps this "ideal world" just really is just one founded on the forcible removal of BLM, SAM, and MCH, and weakening of MNK, SMN, and RDM, all just to elevate DRG, NIN, DNC, and BRD? Are we really just looking for a far fewer competitive compositions than we had in Stormblood?

Contrary to what fflogs metrics may say, every raid-buff goes both ways. Not only does someone have to provide it, but someone also has to capitalize on it. The more personal dps you have, and the more control over its burst, the more you can do with those raid buffs. To say that unless you're throwing out rDPS abilities on CD you must somehow be contributing less effort than the people who bank their resources or vary their rotations beforehand to exploit those CDs is ridiculous. Both are compositionally dependent coordinated efforts.

yes but as raidbuffs depend on the level of the whole group, not just your own raising just your own level will in fact result in less of a "win" to the group so if even at the absolute very very top dpS (again for emphasis, talking purely dps buffs here) don't contribute more raid dps than they cost you in personal dps that means they will in fact in weaker groups mean classes with raidbuffs get punished for no pay off.

Imagine 2 totally equal players playing the same classes which are perfectly equal in dps. if you now take 1000 dps off from one of these classes but in exchange give it a raidbuff you now end up in a situation where either in the very best groups the one buffing the group will have to be at least slightly higher, or the class buffing will in fact be ALLWAYS lower, that defeats the purpose of offering a dps buff, a dps buff is in fact a detriment if it doesn't even offer an advantage at the absolute top end, mind you ast being 6% above whm is bad and was definitely overdone, but the reason for that isn't that at the absolute top ast is stronger, its that its too much stronger, if the difference at the top where half as big as it is than whm would be stronger until around 80% and than very slowly get weaker than ast by a negliable amount.

saying "a class with raidbuffs at the absolute realistic top should be equal to a class with no dps buffs" is equivalent to saying "a class offering dps buffs should allways be weaker than a class offering no buffs unless played in one of the very best groups, than they are allowed equality", its like saying its fine if you earn 20% less because of your nationality if you are a basic worker as long as your pay is equal if you got to be ceo

edit: just to clarify two things, a) either way in an ideal case the dps differences between classes move in a region where it doesn't really matter what dps you use (think tank balance, who really cares which tank does the most dps?) (this is not a general statement, only concerning the "2 equal dps , one selfish one has a dps buff" situation)

and b) it really doesn't matter if blm, sam or on the other hand nin is on top by 100 dps, if whm or ast bring 5% more dps, there will allways be a meta, unless absolute perfect balance is achieved, and thats a pretty lofty goal. in that regard it isn't any better or worse if at the end of the day blm and samurai or summoner (utility buffs are a different story, strictly concerning the fact smn has a dps buff, blm is selfish here) and ninja offer the most dps or if you are better of paring them with a mch or a brd, as such it is futile to break ones mind over the possibility of a certain class ending up slightly stronger than others, selfish or not, the best we (or rather the developers) can aim for is "so close 99% of the playerbase won't give a damn)

[WrenElessedil]

What? Seriously... what?

Do people still not understand what rDPS is? I mean, it's gotta be that or some hidden warrant telling us the 6% lead AST holds over WHM and SCH should being treated with no more concern than the 0.8% lead WHM holds over SCH... Or perhaps this "ideal world" just really is just one founded on the forcible removal of BLM, SAM, and MCH, and weakening of MNK, SMN, and RDM, all just to elevate DRG, NIN, DNC, and BRD? Are we really just looking for a far fewer competitive compositions than we had in Stormblood?

Contrary to what fflogs metrics may say, every raid-buff goes both ways. Not only does someone have to provide it, but someone also has to capitalize on it. The more personal dps you have, and the more control over its burst, the more you can do with those raid buffs. To say that unless you're throwing out rDPS abilities on CD you must somehow be contributing less effort than the people who bank their resources or vary their rotations beforehand to exploit those CDs is ridiculous. Both are compositionally dependent coordinated efforts.

Yes, perhaps ideally there should always be at least one or two buffers in a given party, but the ability to exploit each is every bit as essential. In some cases, where the buffers also have absurdly strong burst, the two will overlap and form a meta comp, but short of that an ideal balance will include a balance between or down a spectrum of buffers and exploiters at opposite extremes.

It sounds like you don't understand rDPS. If a job whose only utility is damage buffs is not providing more rDPS to the party than a selfish DPS, then you should always take the selfish DPS. Selfish DPS should be highest in aDPS, while support DPS should be highest in rDPS (before accounting for non-damage support abilities). Ideally it would be, in terms of rDPS provided, badly timed support < selfish DPS < well timed support, so a selfish job provides slightly more rDPS in the worst case and a bit less in the best case.

[Shurrikhan]

than a selfish DPS

"Selfish"?

Okay, let's use TA. 8 players manage their rotations, including sometimes delaying their own skills, as to better exploit the window. 7 of them lose rDPS for those delays. One of them gains the rewards of all 8's management. That's the NIN. The rest are penalized or at best break even in their rDPS parses for the NIN being there.

But NIN is selfless, and the SAM who's providing the NIN with some 800 potency in every other TA, to the diminution of their own parse, is selfish.

Interesting.

[Deathgiver]

"Selfish"?

The rest are penalized or at best break even in their rDPS parses for the NIN being there.

Wut? Jobs without buffs are not "penalized" for having a buffing job in the party. Their rdps would remain flat regardless of party comp. For selfish jobs rdps is entirely based on their own personal performance, while buffing jobs are a combination of their own proper timing and the party taking proper advantage of those buffs.

[Shurrikhan]

Wut? Jobs without buffs are not "penalized" for having a buffing job in the party. Their rdps would remain flat regardless of party comp. For selfish jobs rdps is entirely based on their own personal performance, while buffing jobs are a combination of their own proper timing and the party taking proper advantage of those buffs.

Any time a job without less indirect dps contributed than received does not perfect their rotation around solely their own damage, i.e. as they might in an SSS fight, they are losing some of their own rDPS in order to benefit others' rDPS. It goes away from their parse and into that of indirect contributors.

[Dogempire]

"Selfish"?

Okay, let's use TA. 8 players manage their rotations, including sometimes delaying their own skills, as to better exploit the window. 7 of them lose rDPS for those delays. One of them gains the rewards of all 8's management. That's the NIN. The rest are penalized or at best break even in their rDPS parses for the NIN being there.

But NIN is selfless, and the SAM who's providing the NIN with some 800 potency in every other TA, to the diminution of their own parse, is selfish.

Interesting.

Selfish comes from when FFLogs was only based on DPS without filtering out padding, so the more utility classes you had the higher everyone's dps became, hence the selfish dps part.