At 95th percentile in 5.1, BRD's total contribution is the lowest of all DPS

[Nemekh]

It's not being defensive, it's correcting misinformation. It's also outlining that this isn't valid/vetted Theorycraft from Summoners at The Balance, unless we're now treating anything randomly discussed as coming from us. As a mentor there, for the job being discussed, I absolutely have the right to call that out. Often do people say "but nem said/worked on x" when I didn't do such at all, or that something came from the server as de facto when it really didn't.

Stating that a well played smn could have that many gcds of movement with no potency loss is outright false.

[Grimoire-M]

Meanwhile the pot smoking SMNs are complaining about doing too much damage.

Because we’re self aware enough to realize when our class is unhealthy for the game as a whole by invalidating the rest of our role and others entirely?

I remember BRDs being happy with being broken for the entirety of SB and some of ARR for its support capabilities but failed to recognize their internal balance problems that pushed their personal DPS numbers too high (Nevermind MCH’s issues throughout its lifetime). None of these players paid attention to FFLogs or savage, yet they did remember to complain in HW because of Bow Mage pushing on “Their identity”. There’s a reason SMN got overbuffed in SB to begin with and SE is presumably making the same mistake because they think it’s healthy and what players want.

What SMNs want is a working pet system with glamours to appease those who want more egi. QoL has ever been the driver of their class. We wanted to keep our relative position on the FFLogs graph while removing the obvious gap in rDPS that was present in half the classes, including BRD.

As of right now I’d say the gap is closed, but some classes need to shift. BRD isn’t one of them imo. It can get a DoT boost and be okay but it shouldn’t exceed DNC as the latter relies more on its burst DPS from Steps than BRD does and therefore should be rewarded accordingly. SMN needs a nerf on Burning Strike by 10-20 pet potency, Tri-D’s nuke toned down to 200, and to revert the Ruin IV buff. Then it will be okay. Ideally it and MCH should be in the middle around NIN/DRG level. No other classes need changes numerically.

I agree that BRD’s identity is under attack in some ways, but accepting that identity should also come at a cost, namely in numbers. The same is equally true of SMN.

[Rika007]

It's not being defensive, it's correcting misinformation. It's also outlining that this isn't valid/vetted Theorycraft from Summoners at The Balance, unless we're now treating anything randomly discussed as coming from us. As a mentor there, for the job being discussed, I absolutely have the right to call that out. Often do people say "but nem said/worked on x" when I didn't do such at all, or that something came from the server as de facto when it really didn't.

Stating that a well played smn could have that many gcds of movement with no potency loss is outright false.

And that would be absolutely correct if we are talking about Summoner rotations and damage optimizations. But we are not. This is a thread discussing Bard's very low damage dealing issues, and the subject of mobility came to play. Now could I have used better verbage and deffinitely excluded the exact phrase "At no potency loss" and instead amended it with something like "Without extreme potency loss" or "without overuse of ruin 2"? Absolutely and my apologies on that. But I didn't say it was a vetted approach and in no way stated that "This is the way to handle movement sections as a Summoner". It was a relevant piece of information of the topic so I brought it up as it's something I read and was quite surprised by, and it's not in anyway false, a Summoner can go that long without a single ruin 2 cast. Which even just a few weeks ago would have been viewed as insane.

And while I understand you are not trying to be defensive and instead just trying to do your due diligence as a mentor, something you are damn good at, it does come off defensive when you use very implicit phrases like "Don't put words in our mouth with hyperbole." I can understand why you would take that approach if people are routinely quoting you out of context. I just want it known I am not in anyway quoting you or any of the mentors in the balance.

[Ahrijlaken]

I don't understand why square Enix are so bad at balancing numbers.

They can easly parse DPS in their studio before making a decision and patch. They don't know how to play the game and can't do savage/trials/raid content and do test ? I just don't get it.

[ErzaScarlet77]

damn, smn OP again now huh? gonna make good alternative for when im doing stuff like e4

[Rika007]

damn, smn OP again now huh? gonna make good alternative for when im doing stuff like e4

More that Summoner is a tad bit too strong and that Ranged as a whole is a tad bit too weak and Bard is the weakest of that role.

[SaitoHikari]

On the other hand, I'm not sure we Bards can even come to an agreement on exactly how our 'identity' should even work, which muddles the waters even further. Although I think most of us would agree that we'd rather take steps to return to SB Bard, with maybe Foe Requiem restored or something.

I think what would help on the DPS front is that instead of DoT damage being restored, the devs could adjust the song buffs further, overhaul Battle Voice to something resembling what it did back in ARR/HW, and increase Repertoire and/or Straight Shot proc rates to something more stable (like 50%). Though I'm not much of a math person.

Maybe something like this:

- Battle Voice: Instead of providing the Direct Hit boost for 20 seconds, it instead supercharges the buff effect from the songs, doubling (or tripling) the effect while active. Duration increased to 30 seconds.
- Army's Paeon: Direct Hit boost increased from +3% to +5%
- Repertoire proc rates increased from 40% to 45%
- Straight Shot proc rate increased from 35% to 45%

[Deceptus]

Sigh. . .

SOMEONE HAS TO BE THE LOWEST OF THE DPS. . . Literally no matter what they do there will always be a lowest. And generally it will be the "support".

The question to always ask is: What is the spread?

The tanks and heals all look around 10% of each other. The DPS look to be about 10% of each other as well.

This is called "Balance".

[Akiudo]

Sigh. . .

SOMEONE HAS TO BE THE LOWEST OF THE DPS. . . Literally no matter what they do there will always be a lowest. And generally it will be the "support".

The question to always ask is: What is the spread?

The tanks and heals all look around 10% of each other. The DPS look to be about 10% of each other as well.

This is called "Balance".

i'm assuming you just don't know better so feel free to double check but your numbers are plain wrong, looking at the all fights metric for eden savage at the 95% percentile, current patch only the heals are actually in the range of 6% to each other, the tanks are even balanced down to a 3% range whereas as far as dps go the top dps is more than 13% above the weakest dps, the dps discreptancy is literally twice as big as the one for heals and 4 times as big as the ones tanks have, and one could even argue that a tight dps balance is more important on dps players compared to tanks/heals as on a per person basis they deal a higher percentage of the total damage. yes dps have different roles but at the end of the day it boils down to "do damage" especially if the difference gets that big

[Rika007]

Sigh. . .

SOMEONE HAS TO BE THE LOWEST OF THE DPS. . . Literally no matter what they do there will always be a lowest. And generally it will be the "support".

The question to always ask is: What is the spread?

The tanks and heals all look around 10% of each other. The DPS look to be about 10% of each other as well.

This is called "Balance".

Please check your numbers before throwing out a statement like that.