Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

[AbelArchaniEA]

I never thought I'd see the "Yet you participate in society" guy on the forums.

Nope. I am the "tired of people like you whom feel entitled and offended by everything" guy on the forums. GG

[Kabooa]

Nope. I am the "tired of people like you whom feel entitled and offended by everything" guy on the forums. GG

Have you looked in the mirror lately?

[Nemekh]

Pay him little mind. His post history doesn't exactly show endearing traits nor much ability to contribute something of note.

[Kabooa]

But it's fun

So I've been on Summoner more, as per your suggestion, specifically Leviathan, though I'm sure there are likely exploitable points in Titan such as cleaving Gaols that probably don't play nicely.

The interesting part about these rotational skills like Trance and Reassemble is that they opted for the 55 second approach instead of, I don't know. Giving them charges.

Charges give some more upfront power but largely solve the drifting issue and they already spent all this time to develop it.

It seems odd that rotational skills don't similarly follow the charge system more, and as Polyglot and old Aetherflow-Trancing was effectively just informal charge system, I can see the annoyance of being left out of the formal system.

Unless it wouldn't. I don't know. Seems like it would with minimal ramifications.

[Galvuu]

Well, the reality is SE balances jobs around the possibility of them being used to the fullest. They need to do that to balance content after all, things like enrage timers are tuned around what the jobs can do in theory, they have said this explicitly in past interviews. So metrics derived from average gameplay are irrelevant, and black mage is still very much 'smoking' summoner if you include 5.0 parses (which you should be, since all the good black mage parses were done before the patch, and most are preparing for ultimate now).

Is there any actual recent, official statement on this? I've heard conflicting things on SE's behalf about balance. Sometimes, they disregard that there's a best comp and assume any composition, sometimes they disregard difficulty, sometimes they disregard the top end of raiders... and sometimes they don't. They're so inconsistent...

Super multi-post snip

I agree with a lot of things that you say.
FFLogs is down atm, but I checked last night and iirc SMN was winning out in rdps overall statistics for Eden Savage on the 95% and 99%. You and other posters have mentioned that the 99s are relatively curated runs (good mechanic rng, good crit opener, etc) and I agree, but the 95% dataset offers a good view of what a competent player can do.
This isn't SMN VS BLM, it's SMN VS everyone. SMN having superior or comparable rdps to top end rdps jobs as a result of its own damage and its (albeit meager) offensive utility means that SMN can replace any job without a loss. It also has Addle as defensive utility (probably the best there is from the dps jobs right now), so it's more or less on the top end for both of these metrics. Then it has the rez which, while not as good as RDM's, it's still quite valuable. It also has access to incredible mobility, literally second only to ranged dps jobs (even better than RDM as part of it is on-demand; one of the weakest points of RDM's theoretical mobility is that sometimes you need to move for 5 gcds in a row and that incurs a bit of a loss no matter what). Taken as a whole, this pushed SMN to become a contender for the most powerful dps job in the game, judging by recent numbers. Even if some super lucky/curated/high effort SAM/BLM/MNK can beat it, on average, they probably will match it at best and lose out most of the time.

The reason why BLM and SMN get compared so much isn't because they're both casters. It's because they lack real differentiating factors beyond the rez and superior mobility the SMN has. BLM has no Mantra and no Feint or whatever. It has Addle, same as SMN.

You mention how there are 10 reasons why people favor SMN over BLM and damage isn't one, and you're right.
The point here is that the only reason why anyone would ever favor BLM over SMN is the damage. Actually, this goes for any job VS BLM (except SAM, it's in the same boat as BLM).
You mention how BLM also competes with other jobs for a spot and you're right. It bothers me SAM is currently edging over BLM, especially with how fragile this job can be (I know people like to live in lalaland where holding Sharpcast and Xeno for mobility willi-nilly is a thing, but there's often a real opportunity cost with holding key cooldowns for long and honestly, if Titan starts car, you won't even have some of them off cooldown for the meteors things, which can really mess up a run).


Further, if double caster did pick up, strictly for prog you'd want RDM and SMN for the biggest possible safety net. The only way to break out of that would be a brutal dps check that would push people towards a different comp. But they haven't done anything like that in a long time, and even if they did, we'd have much bigger problems (not only RDM would be in trouble there, but half the dps roster).

Like, a lot of the points you bring up are truthful and valid, but the argument as a whole is a bit disingenuous. The fact that the highest parsing BLM/SAM/MNK outdoes SMN marginally doesn't exclude that, on the 95~99% range, SMN wins out more often than not, and that SMN has extra utility none of those powerful jobs can match (through the rez), that it's more mobile than BLM, that is has the ranged edge over SAM and MNK and is just all around really damn strong- in fact, possibly the strongest there is.
It'll be a prime pick, as it is, for prog because it offers a raise without tanking the dps too hard (you could easily use it on a first clear with almost 0 cost towards the enrage- even the previous iteration on 5.0 was actually used to that effect on world first attempts).
The speedrun meta adjusts slower, but I'd be surprised if it ends up being picked up in there (time will tell, took a bit for the double ranged/double melee meta to pick up in HW too, and for double casters to show up in 4.5), if these logs are any indication. Hell, if double caster becomes a thing, then it has representation as a core pillar both on prog and on speedrunning (although this isn't a SMN only problem... glares at DRG).
And, just for a more casual (but serious) raider, the job is still probably the best choice over, well, any other dps. It has it all: top-end rdps, nice mobility and one of the strongest utility suites in the game.


P.S.: on the ML comment, I do some weird experiments with a friend on BLM (Transpose memes and other weird stuff) to gain a bit of pps. It's quite fun to have a job as fluid as BLM (even if most people perceive it as having a "simple rotation"; it's so fluid and rng-heavy it's only the semblance of a "rotation"), but it's also a bit sad how much elbow grease you need to put to maybe get 50 dps above a SAM or a SMN... but well, like you said, I picked this road out of my own accord. I just like the job. Even if I'll be on SMN duty for Alex.

P.P.S.: Really, the "max" argument is a bit silly. It's like saying "if you DH/CH every Despair/Xeno/Midare, you defo will do more dps!". Which is technically true, but is quite unlikely...

P.P.P.S.: I'm really posting this wishing I could pm you instead but well, I guess I can put my thoughts out for the world to see.

[Nemekh]

We don't know either, but it's something we have discussed a lot with regards to Aetherflow stacks. It's honestly the last annoying system outside of pet AI and the Egi Assaults 1-4 buff system.

I can understand why they do not want to have Trances subject to charges, it's far too much rush potential even if it is more reminiscent of rushing in the past. The context with 5.x has shifted with the presence of Demis every minute, as opposed to building up to one every 2.

[Shiroe]

to "balance" Smn.., see 2 solutions.

1) either nerf Smn a tick..

2) or buff Blm and Rdm a tick (since 5.1. Blm is lower on average than before with zero utility, even behind Smn at times & Rdm still feels a tick low)

... unless everyone thinks Smn damage isn't too high at all (in general for its utility .. and compared to Blm & Rdm)

[CrimsonGunner]

if the numbers suggest that summoner is going to surpass BLM and break dps balance then there is no point arguing about it cause it was proven mathematically.
however it doesn't mean that summoner changes need to be reverted, i believe they were right with them but if it is too much then SE just need to buff the other 2 more.
BLM didn't receive anything to up his game and if RDM might still be in a bad spot then he should get a bit more love.

there are still need to be changes to summoner to make it feel right in my opinion(his kit still feels too detached from one another and egi needs to have more depth in the kit core) but making the pets have proper damage scaling is a good thing SE did.

and true there will never be true balance,even if there was a proper balance, as long as people yearn for numbers there will always be those that cry on the small and tiny difference or that it still feel too low for them. it doesn't mean they should stop complaining.they too care about their current job and if they are wrong ,people will simply debate with them and explain why they are wrong about their complains.

p.s. thank you OP for bringing this up

[Galvuu]

Everyone going on about "buffing other jobs as compensation" and I think our dps potential is way too high and every job needs a nerf or we need actual dps checks back.
Seriously, the checks are inexistent. I literally died as SMN today and we skipped Smokers on E3S...
I really don't think this SMN should be the baseline.
I already didn't think MNK/DRG/BLM in 5.0 should be the baseline either... job powercreep is a bit out of control.

[Helena480]

I know this probably isn't the place for this kind of thing and I'm not trying to signal the end of the world but right now I really feel like there's no point playing RDM with SMN outside class loyalty lol. I know its silly and I'm more of a "hardcore" casual player that just does primals and 24 mans so I know normally people think that "w/e you like play it" is the usual thought process but...personally I value class balance above a lot in this game. Of course, I will continue to play RDM whenever I feel like it and of course I like the new stuff with potency additions but right now just looking at both classes from my perspective, I feel like RDM is just pointless if that makes sense? I feel like a BLM who has to take the risks when I cast for absolutely no reward...and I have a raise spell.

These are just my thoughts as a RDM main and I don't speak for every RDM out there. I just wanted to get this off my chest. I'm not for nerfing SMN because apparently a lot of players like these changes. However, I would like RDM to feel more rewarding to play if I'm going to choose it over SMN if that makes sense?

Sorry if this post was a mess.