Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

**Myon88** · 11-05-2019 10:58 PM

Welllll, the way you hear some black mages talk, summoner in comparison is a 'hard to learn, easy to master' job with a low skill ceiling. So by that logic we shouldn't see a major spike in their dps as we go deeper into 5.1 and people get more practice with the new rotation. What we've seen is what we're getting. I'm gonna trust their word on it. Also, summoner's dps output is a lot more finely granular than black mage due to being comprised of many small hits instead of a few big ones. It makes their dps far less spiky and prone to variance, so it'll be difficult for a summoner to get that one god run.

And yeah, summoner is a lot closer to black mage now, that's why it's now #80 or something in inter-job rdps rankings and not the, idk, #200 it used to be or something. That's a good thing.

**KroLeXz** · 11-05-2019 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by LariaKirin

If you include 5.0 parses, you also include several months of good RNG for BLM. 5.1 BLM is not reaching 5.0 BLM for this reason.

However, 5.1 SMN is closer than 5.1 BLM to 5.0 BLM.

that just means 5.0 blm are playing 5.1 smn or rdm in preparation to ultimate.

**AbelArchaniEA** · 11-05-2019 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by KroLeXz

that just means 5.0 blm are playing 5.1 smn or rdm in preparation to ultimate.

Yup the weak players always go fir flavor of the month to compensate

**Akiudo** · 11-05-2019 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by Myon88

Also, summoner's dps output is a lot more finely granular than black mage due to being comprised of many small hits instead of a few big ones. It makes their dps far less spiky and prone to variance, so it'll be difficult for a summoner to get that one god run.

see, funnily enough that point is completly irrelevant as what your argument for why smn is not op boils down to is "at the absolut top blm still rule supreme" , there are only 2 possibilitys looking at blm and smn in a vacuum,

either

A) smn variance is close to blm variance, in that case with more weeks coming we will indeed also see more spikes in dps

or

B) Blackmage is actually more prone to variance and therefore spikes but that goes in fact both ways meaning that yes, blm has the potential to "roll higher" so to speak, but that also would mean they are more prone to having a terrible run instead of the god run

both of these end up with "the fact blackmage has a higher max is worth exactly nothing as either smn just hasn't reached its max yet as we are comparing a week to more than a month sitting around in BiS gear OR blackmage indeed has the capacity for a higher max but at the cost of being more inconsistent.

**ShadowNyx3** · 11-06-2019 02:02 AM

Originally Posted by Akiudo

Exactly because there is no hard and fast rule you cant have 2 casters in a party is what makes it a cross role issue, in case of melees fine, if casters are too strong (thats just a theoretical, what if caster in fact ARE too strong, not saying they are) then they are at risk of losing 1 of 2 spots that are right now save to them, if melee should have 2 slots saved for them is another discussion, but they are very well at risk of losing that slot, just as the physical ranged are in fact at risk of losing their only slot at all, it very much is an issue for every class, even ignoring the melee the intent at least is clearly to bring at least one per role, thats the only justification something like the 1% role bonus can ever have for existing and having 2 strong casters very much is an issue as long as the ranges are as weak as they are

Are you actually saying that a melee losing 1 of 2 spots that they only have because of an arbitrary community mindset is a problem? I mean, I guess that might shrink the pool of availability if more groups started backing away from this two melee obsession and those melee players wanted to stick with melee, but guess what, that's not a problem. The flex role is just what it says it is, it can be anything a group wants it to be and as long as 1 spot exists for each role then there is no problem that warrants certain roles wanting to make others weaker just so their role can have two guaranteed slots. A "meta" comp might suggest you take a certain role all the time for the flex position but the meta is just that and not a requirement.

But that's not really why you're here is it? You are a ranged dps player who is terrified, justly so, of becoming obsolete. Since we know that's what you really want to try and solve, why are you quoting me and skipping over the part where I mention how your role has been completely stripped of all of its value with Shadowbringers? Instead of focusing energy on bringing the other two roles down to make the ranged role better, can you try to contribute to the effort to add utility and value back to the ranged role that makes it have more value than just a 1% buff? Due to the nature of the ranged tax, there's no chance that the range role will ever be close to the damage contributions of the other two roles, but that doesn't mean that ranged can't once again have incredible value in the form of their utility. Who knows, they might actually have that right now without anyone here realizing it yet. If you've played as far back as Alexander: Gordias, you'd remember that crowd control abilities were required for Living Liquid's add phase. That's nothing compared to MP and TP resource management but it is a possibility of unique, role-specific utility.

**AbelArchaniEA** · 11-06-2019 02:37 AM

You kids realize that there will never be actual "balance" subjectively right? Someone will always be unhappy with their current job if they are on the low end of the percentiles. Stop complaining like children and play the game or don't. SE will continue to do updates and adjust potencies throughout the expansion. Your forum rants are not going to make it better or worse. The Devs can also read numbers and logs to make adjustments. The players are not the source of directing mandates to the SE team. If you do not understand this by now then I would suggest read the patch note histories. GG

**Akiudo** · 11-06-2019 02:49 AM

Originally Posted by ShadowNyx3

Are you actually saying that a melee losing 1 of 2 spots that they only have because of an arbitrary community mindset is a problem? I mean, I guess that might shrink the pool of availability if more groups started backing away from this two melee obsession and those melee players wanted to stick with melee, but guess what, that's not a problem. The flex role is just what it says it is, it can be anything a group wants it to be and as long as 1 spot exists for each role then there is no problem that warrants certain roles wanting to make others weaker just so their role can have two guaranteed slots. A "meta" comp might suggest you take a certain role all the time for the flex position but the meta is just that and not a requirement.

But that's not really why you're here is it? You are a ranged dps player who is terrified, justly so, of becoming obsolete. Since we know that's what you really want to try and solve, why are you quoting me and skipping over the part where I mention how your role has been completely stripped of all of its value with Stormblood? Instead of focusing energy on bringing the other two roles down to make the ranged role better, can you try to contribute to the effort to add utility and value back to the ranged role that makes it have more value than just a 1% buff? Due to the nature of the ranged tax, there's no chance that the range role will ever be close to the damage contributions of the other two roles, but that doesn't mean that ranged can't once again have incredible value in the form of their utility. Who knows, they might actually have that right now without anyone here realizing it yet. If you've played as far back as Alexander: Gordias, you'd remember that crowd control abilities were required for Living Liquid's add phase. That's nothing compared to MP and TP resource management but it is a possibility of unique, role-specific utility.

like i said myself, IF melees should have a second slot saved for them is another discussion entirely, but just to humor you, personally i don't give a rats ass if melees got a second spot as long as they get one at all, all i said was that this indeed is the status quo, community made or not and therefore melees as they are have a right to give input on it even if i will wholeheartly agree with you that the notion there simply HAVE to be 2 melee spots reserved is a terrible one, on the other point though, the utility for ranges i will for simplicitys sake quote myself from another thread

Originally Posted by Akiudo

while i'm not completly opposed to the idea [of giving more utility to the physical ranged] the whm/ast situation back when whm simply lacked the damage while astro was a weaker (but still strong enough) healer allready showed that no amount of extra defense (with things like palisade and dismantle) will overcome damage, you cant make it so whatever defensive support (or mana managment help) they could offer was absolutely mandatory or people would complain about fights being impossible without say dismantle, on the other hand if you make it so they fall in the range of usefull but technically not necessary people will just find ways to manage without it, they did when astro was the "barely strong enough" heal , and they factually do right now to a lesser extent because for all the "melee uptime strats are hard on the group" no one, literally no one takes 4 ranges and go's "oh yea, now that we don't have to care which dps stands in front our raid runs sooooo much better" , dps is king, and allways will be. also more dps means a shorter fight, a shorter fight means less chances to mess up, even mechanics you don't need to handle if the dps is good enough.

theres also the point about ranged being "easier" and i really wonder how people define that, like yes free movement and all, but what i mean by that is this, ranged dps are easier to do WHAT exactly ? deal damage ? because you will have a harder time dealing any certain dps treshold on a physical ranged compared to the other classes, you will have an easier time doing 10k-11k-15k on literally any class than a physical ranged. yes, doing your rotation correctly without getting oneshot for staying to close to the boss is easier, but what is the payoff ? if even on the most movement heavy fight the physical ranged still completly fall short of everyone else than WHAT is the use of free movement ? heck, what even do people think "free" movement means ? because as it stands smn is nearly as mobile as the physical ranged, back in stormblood i mained redmage and let me tell you even back than it did not feel restricted, i played mch for a time in heavensward, so with gauß barrel, you know my reaction to removing gauß barrel ? "oh yea, great... whatever..." blackmage i cant say, but in general people VASTLY overestimate restrictions they got on their class, yes it is nice not having to think about my position relative to the boss or whatever, but its functionally useless if even after this the dps just falls short.

**Kabooa** · 11-06-2019 02:57 AM

Originally Posted by AbelArchaniEA

You kids realize that there will never be actual "balance" subjectively right? Someone will always be unhappy with their current job if they are on the low end of the percentiles. Stop complaining like children and play the game or don't. SE will continue to do updates and adjust potencies throughout the expansion. Your forum rants are not going to make it better or worse. The Devs can also read numbers and logs to make adjustments. The players are not the source of directing mandates to the SE team. If you do not understand this by now then I would suggest read the patch note histories. GG

I never thought I'd see the "Yet you participate in society" guy on the forums.

**Myon88** · 11-06-2019 03:16 AM

Originally Posted by Akiudo

see, funnily enough

There's something very important you're forgetting, and that's that the top few logs on a certain site are by definition a curated set of data. If you were just comparing the average black mage to the average summoner, then sure you could say the bottom end of the curve would cancel out the lucky outliers (and if that were the case, they would have similar averages). But like I said already, we're not interested in the average or the median black mage, only what the job is capable of at the top end.

If we're only looking at the top, which we are because people are terrified that summoner will peak higher than black mage, then it's perfectly valid to only consider the tail end of the bell curve. So, we end up with option, C) Because summoner damage output is inherently more stable, that the high end summoner parses we see now are already close to their theoretical maximum and won't change much.

Don't underestimate those pesky black mages. I hear they have a variant of their rotation that was discovered by someone who trained an AI/machine learning program on it. It's high risk for a small but very real dps gain over the standard rotation. It's quite possible the ceiling of the job has not yet been reached.

**Kabooa** · 11-06-2019 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by Myon88

Don't underestimate those pesky black mages. I hear they have a variant of their rotation that was discovered by someone who trained an AI/machine learning program on it. It's high risk for a small but very real dps gain over the standard rotation. It's quite possible the ceiling of the job has not yet been reached.

The hope of the 1.5s Despair June(?) letter.

*single tear*

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