How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[Liam_Harper]

Are we, as tanks, seriously attacking healers over their similarly pitiful dps. Healers?

90th percentile Hades, tanks range from 6.6k-6.8k and dps are 11.5k. E4s is a similar gap of about 8.3k to 14.5k. But how dare the healer scrape a minuscule 5.6 and 7.1k.

Personally I feel a healers 5.6 on Hades is the least of the issues in the game, but I guess when your class is boring to play and hits like a wet noodle but you feel it's unrealistic to change, you turn and attack the little guy and demand nerfs to an insignificant factor instead so you can at least be superior to something.

Can we get back to feedback on actual issues like having a engaging gameplay again? Does anyone seriously feel nerfing healers peanut damage will fix tank gameplay?

[BarretOblivion]

Are we, as tanks, seriously attacking healers over their similarly pitiful dps. Healers?

90th percentile Hades, tanks range from 6.6k-6.8k and dps are 11.5k. E4s is a similar gap of about 8.3k to 14.5k. But how dare the healer scrape a minuscule 5.6 and 7.1k.

Personally I feel a healers 5.6 on Hades is the least of the issues in the game, but I guess when your class is boring to play and hits like a wet noodle but you feel it's unrealistic to change, you turn and attack the little guy and demand nerfs to an insignificant factor instead so you can at least be superior to something.

Can we get back to feedback on actual issues like having a engaging gameplay again? Does anyone seriously feel nerfing healers peanut damage will fix tank gameplay?

That's not what we are talking about. Its called using healers as a metric to say "hey look at how weak we are to the point healers are breathing down our necks, that's how weak we are!"

[Nedkel]

That's not what we are talking about. Its called using healers as a metric to say "hey look at how weak we are to the point healers are breathing down our necks, that's how weak we are!"

This and also i would add that healers have literal 3 buttons to press and if they press them all the time they do MORE damage than a tank with 10-13 buttons rotation... and not by small amount but about 600-800 dps! A ranged caster, 3 button rotation > 13 buttons on melee tank.
Now lets go to the DPS subforum and tell ninjas and machinist that their job should do 1-2k less daps than every other dps job despite it being the fastest by APM. xD

[Reynhart]

This and also i would add that healers have literal 3 buttons to press and if they press them all the time they do MORE damage than a tank with 10-13 buttons rotation...

But again, if they "press them all the time" it means they dedicate 0 GCD to heal, which is still a big gamble, while tank's rotation is the same, regardless of what damage you mitigate.
It would be very different if tanks had some mitigation GCD.

[Risvertasashi]

This and also i would add that healers have literal 3 buttons to press and if they press them all the time they do MORE damage than a tank with 10-13 buttons rotation... and not by small amount but about 600-800 dps! A ranged caster, 3 button rotation > 13 buttons on melee tank.
Now lets go to the DPS subforum and tell ninjas and machinist that their job should do 1-2k less daps than every other dps job despite it being the fastest by APM. xD

Sigh.... so here we go again.

It's only 3 buttons if you ignore that a healer, every GCD, has to make a decision on if they can even push that button. And if they push a non-DPS button, there are decisions to make on how to spend or build resources, which would be most efficient, and so forth.

Pressing rampart or other CDs on a tank doesn't stop the DPS. There's no "Well I can't DPS this GCD because I need to build enmity or pop rampart". That's on top of free movement and mobility abilities.

In short, there's a lot more to it than button count.

Saying "how dare healers have kind of close DPS because we have a few more buttons" is a very poor argument. Also, there are healers that like to DPS just as much as tanks like to DPS, and a major theme of this thread has been their preferences are somehow less valid because WE ARE AWESOME STRONK TANKS HOW DARE SE LET HEALERS DPS LIKE US, or something.

[Xtrasweettea]

But again, if they "press them all the time" it means they dedicate 0 GCD to heal, which is still a big gamble, while tank's rotation is the same, regardless on what damage you mitigate.
It would be very different if tanks had some mitigation GCD.

[…] It's only 3 buttons if you ignore that a healer, every GCD, has to make a decision on if they can even push that button. And if they push a non-DPS button, there are decisions to make on how to spend or build resources, which would be most efficient, and so forth. […]

You two understand that healers have healing oGCDs right? The real healing abilities we track and manage?

We aren’t making these life-or-death decisions every time we cast a DPS spell over a cure spell and vice versa. More-often-than-not, we are going for that oGCD first to heal before being forced to rely on GCD spells. If we can get away with basic shields and regens, we’re going to. The rest of the time, it is hitting that one DPS spells and keeping up the dot from that other DPS spell.

Boss fights are so scripted, that I know if I use an oGCD ability to cure/shield after a boss does an ability or tank buster, that same oGCD cure/shield ability will be ready to use when the boss is ready to use that same ability or tank buster.

Are there fights I am going to have to spend some time spamming GCD healing spells? Yes. Are they all-the-time, every-time? No.

Is it possible to almost have 100% DPS time on healer? Yes, it is. Counts on the event, how well the party handles mechanics, and kill speed.

[Risvertasashi]

You two understand that healers have healing oGCDs right? The real healing abilities we track and manage?

Of course. Now make every single heal oGCD with no cast time, and every DPS ability instant with no cast time, and we can start comparing to tanks.

Is it possible to almost have 100% DPS time on healer? Yes, it is. Counts on the event, how well the party handles mechanics, and kill speed.

of course it's possible. But, see, here's the thing. When people were like "OMG white mage can outdamage even some tanks!", this wasn't true even in the 99th percentile.

In order to support this, you have to look at "max damage", so basically cherry picked parses so small they don't represent even the top 1%. Meaning it's a far, far more rare than you make it out to be. In practice, not even the top 1% of healers can regularly DPS that much.

Of course, that was true when this thread was started and for most of it. Now with 5.1, AST reigns over all non-DPS jobs once more, but if SE wasn't giving AST crazy buffs this wouldn't be FF14.

[Reynhart]

Are there fights I am going to have to spend some time spamming GCD healing spells? Yes. Are they all-the-time, every-time? No.

But how close are you to this top healer-DPS when you have to dedicate several GCD healing ?

Is it possible to almost have 100% DPS time on healer? Yes, it is. Counts on the event, how well the party handles mechanics, and kill speed.

So, in a sense, your DPS is a group effort...while tank's GCD usage is solely focused on itself.

On a sidenote, if you can win an end-game content without relying at all (or close) to your healing spells (Since oGCD are abilities), it means the content has a design issue.

[Risvertasashi]

On a sidenote, if you can win an end-game content without relying at all (or close) to your healing spells (Since oGCD are abilities), it means the content has a design issue.

That, and, since they said we should focus on raid/ex content. Let's use WHM as an example. Do they really think you can heal Hades ex or any Eden savage with only assize, tetra, bene, etc? Never touching medica 2, never using an afflatus spell, never using regen?

The only time that happens is if you go in with friends with the understanding the other healer is solo healing so you can chase numbers, or if you're willing to get kicked and probably blacklisted by pugs.

Might be a bit more doable with SCH, but still a bit questionable if you think you're meaningfully contributing to healing...

[FirstnameLastname]

Debating about amount of dedicated GCD healing for PUGs is kinda futile.. you know, because gcbtw.

In a static setting (speaking from my personal experience, of course) heal optimization will always go towards investing as little GCDs into healing as possible. And it is, in fact possible, to heal all of Eden Savage and Hades EX only by using oGCDs if the rest of the group has a good synergy and mistakes are minimal to nonexistent (which should always be the case, as this is the intended design). This obviously includes support abilities of other classes such as Mantra or Divine Veil but those are there to be used anyways, no?

So in any good run a healer does not have to spend GCDs on healing because the group funtions properly - and now he can quite easily be close to tank DPS if not overtake a sub-par tank. Which puts tanks in a "be there and get hit" kind of state of actual group usefulness. Which, of course, will tick of some tanks because they feel like their only contribution towards the end goal (aka reducing a mob's HP to 0) is being a meat shield while scratching the enemys back lightly with a fork.