How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[Khimer]

I don't see why it would make any difference, given that all damage would be based on AP? Even if you have only 70% of the AP of a DPS, losing 30% of your AP still costs the same portion of your damage as it would a DPS.

I'm talking about str and vit each giving 0.45 increase to AP like it was in HW, which was changed because they didn't want weakness after death to affect vit anymore. But now that i think about it with current system it wouldn't make any sense. They could just make str benefit us 10% less instead of 30% like it is now. That shouldn't shoot tank dps on par with actual dps, but also we won't fall that far behind.

I love how in previous expansions with each tier tanks got close to dps numbers of previous tier but with shb we will barely reach edengate dps numbers in the last tier.

[Shurrikhan]

They could just make str benefit us 10% less instead of 30% like it is now.

Wouldn't it be even easier to just give us 100% STR benefit, but less inflated tank potencies?...

[Falar]

It wasn't always like that in HW, I hated that change.

Attack power should be attack power. Give the DPS jobs more potency and stronger buffs.

[Aurelius2625]

I'm not even joking, I'd rather there be an enmity combo back if it meant I could deal 75 percent of a DPS' dps, like how it was in Stormblood. The fact that the TANK class deals less damage than the HEALERS is just flat out broken design. The devs never intended for this to happen... They basically just threw a number in for the tank scaling and were like, "eh, close enough".

There's no way that a class that has to actually focus on a ROTATION of literally every GCD being about damage like tanks dealing LESS DAMAGE than HEALERS who literally have to stop dpsing to cast GCD heals.

Either that, or nerf the ever loving SHIT out of healing GCDs, or prune them to where they get like...two ogcds, one single target, one aoe on like a 1 min timer.

But then the healers would bitch about being weak or w/e.

But that's outrageous that even though I'm expending every single waking action on dps, I'm still coming up short vs the healers.

Bring back the enmity combo and make it less potency but higher enmity.

[Bravely_Default]

Kind of an issue that DPS are pushing over 18.5k in many instances while tanks are sitting at around 10.5k (numbers bumped down to account for top percent.) It feels pretty bad when a DPS could LITERALLY have weakness the entire fight and still push out well over the damage of any tank maintaining 100% uptime. if for some reason even 65% of the DPS damage is TOO MUCH for a tank/healer, than give us a "rally cry" role skill that lasts for like 3 seconds and procs a damage buff for the entire team if you take a huge hit in that time.... than you would be indirectly buffing our damage big time while making us still TEAM reliant. However, given the fact that white mage heals are still as strong as they are while being able to put out more dps than any of the other healers with just 2 skills, SE is not going to change ANYTHING until the next expansion.

Sad truth is as long as they can keep making cash off of emotes and mounts from the mogstation and players stay subbed, nothing else matters.... I have to even wonder when the last time somebody from their team even looked at any of the class forums to realize the gripes being put out? considering gunbreaker sounds still havn't been reverted, probably NEVER lol. Just a huge echo chamber in here.

[MerlinCross]

Kind of an issue that DPS are pushing over 18.5k in many instances while tanks are sitting at around 10.5k (numbers bumped down to account for top percent.) It feels pretty bad when a DPS could LITERALLY have weakness the entire fight and still push out well over the damage of any tank maintaining 100% uptime. if for some reason even 65% of the DPS damage is TOO MUCH for a tank/healer, than give us a "rally cry" role skill that lasts for like 3 seconds and procs a damage buff for the entire team if you take a huge hit in that time.... than you would be indirectly buffing our damage big time while making us still TEAM reliant. However, given the fact that white mage heals are still as strong as they are while being able to put out more dps than any of the other healers with just 2 skills, SE is not going to change ANYTHING until the next expansion.

Sad truth is as long as they can keep making cash off of emotes and mounts from the mogstation and players stay subbed, nothing else matters.... I have to even wonder when the last time somebody from their team even looked at any of the class forums to realize the gripes being put out? considering gunbreaker sounds still havn't been reverted, probably NEVER lol. Just a huge echo chamber in here.

How much damage do tanks need then?

I mean I'm in agreement something needs to be done with tanks but personally I think just ramping up the damage is the wrong way to go about that. Give Tanks other duties, other abilities, other things to worry about besides pushing damage and let the damage dealers worry about keeping up time. Let the tanks worry about giving DPS the chance to DO that.

"But Merlin, you've said you want more Damage, what is your deal?"

Why yes I know someone might point out the hypocrisy. I simply see two possible paths; one where they put the breaks on the push for damage and one where they don't. And most the talk I've seen about this game across the community seems to frame it as "more damage" is the only possible end goal, regardless of what I think or want. I personally think it's a mistake to ask for more damage on the TANK role but hey if people want to run this into the ground, be my guest.

All I ask is hopefully something is decided and it gets done. Either for the improvement of the game, or to see this crash and burn faster.

[Kalise]

How much damage do tanks need then?

I simply see two possible paths; one where they put the breaks on the push for damage and one where they don't. And most the talk I've seen about this game across the community seems to frame it as "more damage" is the only possible end goal, regardless of what I think or want. I personally think it's a mistake to ask for more damage on the TANK role but hey if people want to run this into the ground, be my guest.

Well, the fact remains, at the end of the day, Tanks will need to do meaningful damage.

Even if there are other Tank duties to consider, Tanks will need to be pushing out meaningful damage.

Why? Scalability.

Typical "Tank" duties are often binary. Usually something like "You either survive it or you don't". If you survive the damage, that's all you need, since you can be healed back up. (This is somewhat marred by tanks having invulnerability CD's allowing them to actually bypass literally any need to hit any sort of minimal gear requirements to survive a particular attack...)

Yet, the driving force for doing content and acquiring gear is to improve your stats. Hence, if "Tank Duties" are tuned around being survivable at minimum item level, which they literally need to be, then what purpose does gearing up serve? None. You simply will end up surviving the same skills but at a slightly higher HP total. That doesn't make the fight progress any better. Not unless it affects something like being able to drop use of a Tank LB and instead use a DPS LB.

Damage is typically the only facet of gearing that scales infinitely. Every point of DPS reduces the kill time of the boss by a fraction. Thus, damage needs to scale with gear at a rate which feels useful, so that gearing up feels useful.

Part of this also includes relative damage to DPS, since if DPS outscale the Tank significantly, then the Tanks increase of damage, no matter how large, will feel insignificant. I.e. If a Tank doing 10k DPS managed to increase his damage by 50% going up to 15k DPS, but at the same time DPS doing 20k DPS managed to increase their damage by 100% going up to 40k DPS, then the 5k increase from the Tank pales compared to the damage that the DPS are now doing.

This last point is of some notable concern for this expansion given that Tanks have a reduced scaling backwritten into their damage formulae, which will cause them to scale significantly slower than all other jobs. There could reach a point closer to the end of the expansion where tanks gear becomes irrelevant due to how minor impact it has on beating enrage timers.

[Kabooa]

Part of this also includes relative damage to DPS, since if DPS outscale the Tank significantly, then the Tanks increase of damage, no matter how large, will feel insignificant. I.e. If a Tank doing 10k DPS managed to increase his damage by 50% going up to 15k DPS, but at the same time DPS doing 20k DPS managed to increase their damage by 100% going up to 40k DPS, then the 5k increase from the Tank pales compared to the damage that the DPS are now doing.

Ramuh and Voidwalker are comparable uptime fights (Both having around 99.6+% uptime).

We are not yet week 8 so it is possible that not everyone is BIS, and given that these discussions tend to use metrics that favor gearing out the RDPS kings, it's possible that the Tanks or Healers in questions are not yet BIS while the DPS most likely are.

While we usually want to avoid using Max, in this regard it shows us the current plateau each job has hit. This will be useful.

We'll use Black Mage since Black Mage has received no potency adjustments to relevant abilities (No AoE, Foul's change irrelevant)

The Max of Black Mage in Voidwalker is: 17,402
The Max of Black Mage in Ramuh is: 20,403
Growth: 17.2%

The Max of Warrior in VW: 9380
The Max of Warrior in RM: 11,067
Growth: 17.9%
Compared to Black Mage VW: .54
Compared to Black Mage RM: .54

The Max of Paladin in VW: 9,758
The Max of Paladin in RM: 11,443
Growth: 17.2%
Compared to Black Mage VW: .56
Compared to Black Mage RM: .56

The Max of Gunbreaker in VW: 9,664
The Max of Gunbreaker in RM: 11,419
Growth: 18.1%
Compared to Black Mage VW: .55
Compared to Black Mage RM: .56

The Max of Dark Knight in VW: 9,377
The Max of Dark Knight in RM: 11,003
Growth: 17.3%
Compared to Black Mage VW: .54
Compared to Black Mage RM: .54


Given that Main Attribute increases and Sub-Stat increases will be the same, with variations most likely occurring on which stats show up where and what breakpoints can be hit in the BIS, this ratio should remain in dummy fights, shifting as Uptime differences occur depending on how encounters play out.

[Insanecell]

You could give tanks and healers 100 things to do within their role and still see dps prioritized just under doing what you need to do to prevent a wipe. Whether your mmo has a trinity class system in it or not does not matter.

Its just that in mmos without the trinity like gw2, players will find ways to "tank" damage the boss does or find a way to sustain through it while keeping up in the nuclear arms race.

[Nedkel]

You could give tanks and healers 100 things to do within their role and still see dps prioritized just under doing what you need to do to prevent a wipe. Whether your mmo has a trinity class system in it or not does not matter.

Its just that in mmos without the trinity like gw2, players will find ways to "tank" damage the boss does or find a way to sustain through it while keeping up in the nuclear arms race.

This.
No matter what you try to design, dps is the main balance factor and its important for tanks and healers to do reasonable dps in comparison to dps role.
First you need to balance open pve and then instanced pve so all jobs could have important impact on the game.
Everyone could argue with me on this how they want it does not matter, in ALL mmorpgs i played the low dps tanks always were played the least because playing a useless meat shield IS NOT appealing at all from gameplay point of view.