Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

[Noctisnine]

the summoner is too strong it is a fact, but not at a dramatic stage, the solution is either to raise the firepower of the black mage and the red mage slightly, or to slightly lower that of the Summoner.

Next week before ultimate gets released I would not be surprised if we get small buffs/nerfs, as in a small potency buff for the nerf of anatman and a small nerf for summoner.

[Akiudo]

Those melee DPS are going to do less damage without a ranger in the party. Maybe for a 99th percentile group on over-geared farm content, dropping the ranger may be feasible. However for progression content like the upcoming Ultimate, the 1% buff also affects survival because of 1% more HP for the entire party.

I do not understand why magical caster DD's always have to do less damage than melee DPS. This is a community meta restriction we place upon ourselves. The game encourages to fill out the party for the 1% buff up to 5%. That means melee DD, magical caster DD, physical ranger DD, and an optional DD of your choice.

yes, again thanks for reading my post, as i allready wrote before raid dps without lb in these fights is 85-93k, that is with the buff meaning the 1% given by having the "ranger" in the party, so take of 1% of that and alltogether (the whole group) will do say 930 dps less for voidwalker, 300 or so of that will come from the 2 melees but thats not important because again, it was allready accounted for, you cant substract it once from the group as a whole and than again from the melee, thats not how this works.

the whole "the weakest melee does 1400 dps more than bard" also is allready is accounting for any buff a bard or another class may bring, what this means is that if there was no bard buffing in the group the parser would have said "melee dps1 does 15k dps" now with the bard in the group the parser says "melee dps 1 does 15,3k dps" but once it gets uploaded to fflogs we are once again back to "melee dps1 did 15k dps" thats with or without the "ranger" ,the only thing the numbers listed on their they wont subtract is the 1% buff the group would be lacking, but even than there would still be 400 dps more to be had by a second melee compared to a single ranged which you don't need if you got 2 casters. i'll give you the 1% hp for ultimate, but not only is that content only a miniscule amount of the playerbase does, its also a really really bad reason to take a class.

[Myon88]

Everlasting Flight is a passive buff that actually do more healing

Not good enough, you don't look solely at pure throughput to determine the effectiveness of a heal. Vercure is not only targeted but also on demand which puts a massive premium on it. If you're on fire, you don't put it out by standing in a drizzle, you need someone with a hose. Take ucob for example, with vercure you can spot heal people that the healers might've missed and save them from the upcoming gigaflare. This is one the most common gimmicks in the entire fight and vercure pulls its weight every time. Erase, that tiny ogcd heal role action that most people probably already forgot existed, was a more effective summoner healing tool than everlasting flight.

Swiftcast is wholly insufficient to compensate for what dualcast can do. People die frequently or in multiples all the time when learning a fight, far more than the minute's cooldown on swiftcast can keep up with.

You're welcome to value summoner's utility tools however you like, but I venture I've more experience in high stakes raiding than you, so I trust my judgment far more. In fact, when alex comes out next week, I'm going to be heading in as rdm until we near the enrage - as I imagine the casters of most good groups will be doing.

[SpeckledBurd]

Next week before ultimate gets released I would not be surprised if we get small buffs/nerfs, as in a small potency buff for the nerf of anatman and a small nerf for summoner.

I'd be surprised to see an Anatman change or any potency buffs at all for that matter. I'd bet that the devs don't perceive 5.1 Anatman's change as a nerf at all and they're probably pretty happy with where things have landed now, but who knows. 5.05 had a surprising amount of changes.

[remiff]

Next week before ultimate gets released I would not be surprised if we get small buffs/nerfs, as in a small potency buff for the nerf of anatman and a small nerf for summoner.

it seems unlikely, it will be necessary to wait 5.2

[wereotter]

You're welcome to value summoner's utility tools however you like, but I venture I've more experience in high stakes raiding than you, so I trust my judgment far more. In fact, when alex comes out next week, I'm going to be heading in as rdm until we near the enrage - as I imagine the casters of most good groups will be doing.

tl/dr

"I think I'm better than you, so without making any evaluation on you, and without knowing you at all, I'm going to assume you're wrong"

Also high end raiding doesn't always mean you're right about certain skills or abilities, especially when those things have just all changed. I can admit that I might be mistaken about the value of some skills over others, but that doesn't also mean that I'm wrong about them all either.

Also.... I loved erase. I want it back

[Myon88]

funny thing is while you allways quoted the drawback he stated you never quoted him fully, he literally pointed out positives/advantages the summoner version has

The advantages are irrelevant if they are dwarfed by the downsides to a massive extent. Healing throughput is less valuable than the control you have over it, especially when you as the dps are not the primary source of healing.

embolden indeed is a lot stronger than devotion, still worth mentioning that it hits everyone, something embolden doesn't and which actually would be somewhat relevant in a dual caster situation, especially if smn came out as meta as embolden would be quite a bit weaker with a second caster, a drawback devotion doesn't have

It's stronger even after considering the fact that it only affects melee. Rdps doesn't care about damage types. Embolden just buffs people so hard (or devotion is so weak) that even buffing only physical it still contributes way more dps.

also and heres the kicker, it adds up to their respective raid dps so what does it matter which is stronger

I don't know, you tell me. I'm not the one nitpicking the differences in raid utility between jobs and trying to spin it in a way that makes summoner look overpowered. If summoner is strong, everyone benefits right? Yeah I'm in total agreement.

the rezz i'll give you is superior in redmages case, however lets be real here,
if you really think the fact rdm can multy rezz is worth a 1000 dps~ lead on redmage ? because if thats your honest opinion than blackmage really should smoke summoner in a pipe,

Yes, it's worth that much, and yes, black mage is still 'smoking' summoner so I see nothing to be worried about.

[RadicalPesto]

Embolden being stronger than Devotion is laughably irrelevant when Summoner still brings several hundred more rDPS than RDM, and brings higher rDPS than BLM at most percentiles while having Resurrection. Myon88 seems like they're consistently moving the goalposts after their attempt to frame this current unbalance as "reparations" was not taken seriously.

[wereotter]

There is always a guy saying, monk should be nerfed...now its smn should be nerfed... people are never happy with anything.

Every job is overturned... unless it's the job you main. Then that job is fine

[Kabooa]

I do not understand why magical caster DD's always have to do less damage than melee DPS. This is a community meta restriction we place upon ourselves. The game encourages to fill out the party for the 1% buff up to 5%. That means melee DD, magical caster DD, physical ranger DD, and an optional DD of your choice.

This is a giant overreaching concept that can't really be summarized in a single post.

The short version is still rather lengthy, so bear with me.

When it comes to balancing classes in a Trinity game, the hard math that comes from theorcrafting and practical application comes down to the right tool for the right job. The 'strongest' jobs aren't necessarily those with the most damage, but those who deal with the most mechanics / reduce the overall strength and difficulty of the encounter.

The reason that FF14 values damage so much is that the player's ability to influence the encounter is generally limited to some hard binaries, with DPS being the only scaling adjustment. ("Skip soar or disband"). The hard binaries are generally tank busters and healing requirements via the raid busters. The hard enrage, while adding a suitable layer of tension, also removes some ability to compensate. Being 'less efficient, more consistent' is generally the motto when it comes to encounter puzzles in other games, and really only applies in FF14 as gear scales the player up, allowing the 'less efficient' to clear the same hurdle.

"DPS is king" because it's the only real agency the player has in influencing the encounter.

So who gets the most DPS?

Generally speaking, it's usually those who bring the least supplemental tools.

One would expect this means Black Mage, Samurai, and Machinist.

As a secondary property, it's also those who have the most constraints. The Samurai must be in melee and must hit positionals to maximize damage. The Black mage must complete a cast in order to deal damage, but does so from any range. The Machinist has none of those constraints.

So your expectation is that these three jobs deal the most damage, but the order of their ranking should be Samurai >= Black Mage > Machinist. The thresh hold and difference between them is generally where the contest is, but the idea is that encounter design varies enough, and player capability matters enough, that the three can leap frog around these on-paper rankings.

Almost done.

But we also run into the problem where each of those jobs also have 2-3 other jobs who fall into the same category, who bring a variety of non-damage oriented tools along with varying effective raid damage increases.

So we have some things we have to consider.
1. The jobs who bring extras cannot deal equal or greater damage. That is immutable, or the jobs who bring nothing else are obsolete. "Extras" are non-damage oriented tools or capabilities.
2. There are four slots for them. At a bare minimum the value of a given role must at least be the equivalent of going from 105% stats to 104%.
3. A job's given strength should be assumed over a variety of encounters, not just ones tailored for it. A tailored encounter should be its chance to excel, not its chance to be passable.

With this in mind, lets start with 1.

The Samurai cannot be outclassed by Monk or Dragoon. The Ninja's supplemental tools have largely been removed, with Trick Attack mostly just being lip service. That said, compared to the other jobs, Ninjutsu affords it more robust capability from out of melee range, so in fights without 100% uptime, the ninja maintains some capability of maintaining meaningful uptime if disengaging from the boss for a few gcds. Mantra has been mostly rendered a moot point, though it still has use. The melee's current design (not tuning) would lead one to assume the following hierarchy.

Ranking

1. Samurai
2. Monk, Dragoon
3. Ninja

With that in mind, Black Mage would slot in at 2x or 3 spot - They have a fair amount of tools to deal with forced movement and mainly suffer in heavily extended periods, but they aren't too dissimilar from Red Mages in that regard. The current patch makes VerScathe less awful but likely still undesirable. Summoners maintain the most on demand mobility, though improper play leverages a tax for each step.

And the problem comes back again to Raise, as without them, Red Mage and Summoner are perfectly fine on the same rung of 2 / 3. The value Raise has fluctuates, but the end result comes back to consideration 1: The jobs who bring extras cannot deal equal or greater damage.

1. Samurai
2. Monk, Dragoon, Ninja
2/3. Ninja, Black Mage
4. Red Mage, Summoner

Ranged plain and simple have to come in last in their current iteration. The gap is what's debatable. This comes into consideration 3: A job's given strength should be assumed over a variety of encounters, not just ones tailored for it. A tailored encounter should be its chance to excel, not its chance to be passable.

What encounter 'tailors' to the Ranged? Effectively any encounter that doesn't tailor to Melee or Casters. Machinist has nothing that the other ranged do not, and therefore it is relatively easy to place this. The Machinist should do less damage than a Black mage, but more damage than any equally mobile jobs who bring extras.

Our final ranking looks like this.

1. Samurai
2. Monk, Dragoon, Ninja
2/3. Black Mage
4. Red Mage, Machinist
5. Summoner, Bard, Dancer

Now that brings consideration 2 into play. Why not just bring 4 melee if you can? While in an ideal world, encounter design would A) Potentially allow this at times but also B) It's still way better to bring a variety of jobs, for the sake of our concerns, it effectively means that the Highest performing of one role and the lowest performing of another role do not differ by more than about .96-1% of a raid's total damage at equal skill levels.

This means if your team clocks in at 90,000, the Samurai is not higher than 900 over a Summoner, or Bard/Dancer. Using some arbitrary numbers...

1. Samurai - 16,000
2. Monk, Dragoon, Ninja
2/3. Ninja, Black Mage
4. Red Mage, Machinist
5. Summoner, Bard, Dancer - 15,100

Ok I lied, we weren't almost done back there.

Now I doubt that's a universally accepted list (I often jest on the ones that do show up), but it's worth noting that this is assuming jobs in their tailored encounters.

The Samurai / melee fluctuate down as melee uptime is denied. The casters fluctuate down as more movement is demanded.

TLDR: "It's a tier list! We aren't sick of these yet!"