Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

[Shiroe]

its not Blm is too strong, its Smn (look at the average parsers of all fights and even some top parsers)

Smn is top dps with Sam..

it should be Blm with Sam..

[Shiroe]

even Mr Happy sees Smn as too strong atm and Blm too weak
(as Smn as dps with utility and Blm with none.., and Blm with movement issues)

[Miminming]

You guys forget the fact you are looking at rDPS a dps which include utility except raise... if any all job on the same role should have the same rdps, maybe minus raise tax... (which many people argue the need of it )

I dont want to cover SMN sinve its indeed feel a bit too strong atm, but saying BLM is losing to SMN is FALSE

[Myon88]

Summoner and Red Mage provide a comprable amount of utility

It can't be used whenever you need it, but..

While you can't dual cast it whenever its needed..

It's on a longer cooldown, but..

I think you said it best yourself, there is no universe where the utility from summoner and red mage can be described as comparable. You clearly realize that the summoner 'versions' of these skills have conditionals attached to them, but I don't think you grasp just how significant of a penalty having these conditions are.

Everlasting flight is a gimmick that will only ever align with mechanics by chance, that's not something you want to count on. It's also ineffective against burst damage which constitutes the vast majority of dangerous mechanics in this game. Not only that, you would have to inform your healer beforehand lest they overheal and make it pointless (and that's assuming the amount it heals is even enough to save your healer a cast in the first place). It's an ability that exists more for flavour than anything else, because hey, a phoenix has to heal things right? (It's not like the phoenix in ucob gave you a damage buff or anything...)

You know, summoners were worried when we saw this ability back during fanfest for this exact reason. Because it was clearly meant as a joke, but eventually someone would take it seriously and cite it as a reason to reduce summoner's power elsewhere. Well, here's the punchline I guess, it's not funny. Did you know, everlasting flight is probably actually making summoners lose damage? It's theorized that the need for phoenix to 'cast' everlasting flight is freezing it up for a brief moment after summoning and making it unable to cast scarlet flame. It makes gcd/ogcd sequencing very awkward as a result, and is something they fixed for bahamut in 5.1 (From the patch notes: Summon Bahamut Wyrmwave can now be executed immediately after being summoned.)

Embolden's actually a good deal stronger than devotion too, now that we have rdps calculations, you can check this for yourself right now. Go find some high ranking speedruns featuring summoners and red mages (you have to scroll down pretty far though cause it's all black mages ha ha ha). Mouseover their 'damage done' and see how much credit they got for their buffs respectively.

Verraise is on a completely different level to resurrection. I really shouldn't need to explain why, anyone who has done serious progression raiding will agree. There is a massive, massive difference between a raise that only needs 2.5 seconds of hardcasting to prep, and one that requires you to stand still for 8 seconds. You've some experience in eden right? You try standing still for 8 seconds when Leviathan is casting temporary current or you're running from adds or the big hand in Voidwalker.

All things considered, I think the gap between smn and rdm dps is now far more representative of the differences in their utility than it was in 5.0.

[lulunami]

because the weakest melee completly smokes the strongest physical in dps ? leaving out e1s because of add padding mch is the only ranged with any shot at being wortwhile, and even than its only very very barely because of the 1% buff, mch is the strongest phys ranged by 200-700 dps compared to bard/dnc depending on fight and you don't even need any "uptime strats" or whatever as the moment you take the first melee you will do that either way.

for numbers sake, right at this very moment, 95% percentile for 1 day (feel free to check tomorrow, the general picture has been the same for every day since patch hit)

e2s=bard 14.072
weakest melee (nin)=15.479
1407 dps buffer from bard to weakest melee

e3s=bard 13.167
weakest melee (drg)=14.708
1541 dps buffer

e4s=bard 13.193
weakest melee (nin)=14.469
1276 dps buffer

now a 95% group which means only 1 out of twenty groups is better, does 85000-93000 dps on these fights if you exclude the limit break meaning the 1% ranged buff gives anywhere from 850-930 dps, thats why you don't exclude the melee, because you could literally take the weakest melee and still be 400 dps ahead compared to taking a bard, dnc on average fairs a bit better, but excluding levi where bard is a bit of an outlier do to his group buff being outranged like 30% of the fight dnc still is only like 50-100 dps ahead of bard or in other words, still 300-400 dps short AFTER the 1% buff is accounted for, the only phys ranged with a chance to break even is mch, and even that is barely.

Also the question of "but what if you instead excluded the melee" still acts as if melees having to compete for a second spot is anywhere close to as bad as physical ranged actually having to compete for any spot at all. saying things like "the physical buffs saved them from exclusion" ignores that literally everyone aside from the strongest 2 of 5.0 got buffed by the same or more dps than the physical ranged

Those melee DPS are going to do less damage without a ranger in the party. Maybe for a 99th percentile group on over-geared farm content, dropping the ranger may be feasible. However for progression content like the upcoming Ultimate, the 1% buff also affects survival because of 1% more HP for the entire party.

I do not understand why magical caster DD's always have to do less damage than melee DPS. This is a community meta restriction we place upon ourselves. The game encourages to fill out the party for the 1% buff up to 5%. That means melee DD, magical caster DD, physical ranger DD, and an optional DD of your choice.

[wereotter]

snip.

Everlasting Flight is a passive buff that actually do more healing than any red mage vercure will do in an 8-man raid scenario since the red mage has to stop DPS entirely to use their skill while summoner can use their as just part of summoning Phoenix. That healing may or may not ever be valuable depending on the phase its used in, but it's a raid utility skill that exists outside of having any impact on the ability of the summoner to do damage.

Verraise is in a similar situation (yes, I've done Eden savage) when you're in progression, you can be smart and just know you might need to save swiftcast to use resurrection than use it as a DPS skill. Yes, that's not optimal usage of swiftcast, but we all know that caster raises are primarily for progression not for farming.

I haven't looked into embolden vs devotion in logs yet, so only the comparison is from the fact that devotion buffs all damage while embolden only buffs physical. Though if there's massive difference between the two this might be a reason to have summoners slightly higher.

[remiff]

even Mr Happy sees Smn as too strong atm and Blm too weak
(as Smn as dps with utility and Blm with none.., and Blm with movement issues)

BLM too weak ?
it's the biggest joke I have never heard,
Yes the summoner is slightly too strong at the moment, but the blm is just too strong since the 5.0

and now that the summoner is temporarily unbalanced blm main crying and complain while the blm is still as strong

in any case, the black mage would have been put aside for the world prog of the ultimate ,
because the red mage and the summoner have a rez .


dont worry summoner will be nerfed in 5.2 .
and blm will shine again .

[Noctisnine]

There is always a guy saying, monk should be nerfed...now its smn should be nerfed... people are never happy with anything.

[Akiudo]

snip

funny thing is while you allways quoted the drawback he stated you never quoted him fully, he literally pointed out positives/advantages the summoner version has in 2 out of the 3 aspects he covered in addition to its drawbacks and while yes, the dualcast/verraise point indeed is true, redmage has an easier time rezzing him pointing out that having to raise twice in quick succession, espacially in a try where it matters still holds true, especially as rezzing multiple times in a row still will completly tank a redmages mana, but just for funsies let me do it again for you

"1. summoner heal indeed only happens when well, it happens, you don't control it. if it aligns correctly its also vastly more powerfull than redmages heal will ever be and doesn't even cost the summoner dps to do, realistically both are functionally worthless 95% of the time

2 embolden indeed is a lot stronger than devotion, still worth mentioning that it hits everyone, something embolden doesn't and which actually would be somewhat relevant in a dual caster situation, especially if smn came out as meta as embolden would be quite a bit weaker with a second caster, a drawback devotion doesn't have, also and heres the kicker, it adds up to their respective raid dps so what does it matter which is stronger ? you really want to say if summoner and redmage were functionally equal in every way, just that smn deals 2000 dps more (lets say devotion doesn't exist for this scenario) and redmage gets embolden buffing the group for 900 dps than that would be balanced ? it is raid dps, plain and simple, summoner allready gets compensated with extra personal dps because its dps buff is weaker, just that right now the extra dps smn has on rdm goes far and beyond that. embolden being stronger should mean nothing for raid dps, heck if anything at the absolute top end it should push rdm ahead if anything because paying more personal dps than a raidbuff offers factually defeats its purpose.

3. the rezz i'll give you is superior in redmages case, however lets be real here,
you really think the fact rdm can multy rezz is worth a 1000 dps~ summoner lead on redmage ? because if thats your honest opinion than blackmage really should smoke summoner in a pipe, the chance a single rezz in a fight actually saves a try is probably a lot higher than that a try where a redmage has to rezz his 5th person will end in anything but an enrage. yes, it may still be incredibly usefull for learning fights if you are a serious progression raider, but could we just maybe stop making a class suck for 99% of the playerbase because of the 1% competing for world first ? espacially as these in particular are the guys that will just take redmage to learn the fight anyways, even if its damage was cut by 50% just to than switch for the kill and never go back ?

[remiff]

There is always a guy saying, monk should be nerfed...now its smn should be nerfed... people are never happy with anything.

the summoner is too strong it is a fact, but not at a dramatic stage, the solution is either to raise the firepower of the black mage and the red mage slightly, or to slightly lower that of the Summoner.