Bring back crowd control. Bring back branching dungeons. Bring back ADVENTURE.

[Lersayil]

What players want are the rewards. Give more rewards for fully clearing the dungeons. Problem solved.

Define extra reward. Tomestones are sort of moot, since you cap them pretty fast anyways. Loot? Nobody really cares unless skin farming. Gil? Hah.

Adventure, and exploration doesn't mesh well with daily chores. CC just slows us down in the current meta.

As for the topic overall: you're basically describing deep dungeons.

[Reynhart]

Getting the same reward faster is more rewarding.

Except that we're talking about "less reward" faster. Going through Sastasha by ignoring all optionnal rooms is faster, but it would give you less reward. Of course, once you decide to do the full run, killing mobs faster...will be faster.

Tomestones are sort of moot, since you cap them pretty fast anyways.

No,they're not. People are adamant about how they don't want to spend too much time doing the dungeons. So, if having additionnal rewards can help you skip a run entirely, it's far from moot.
Instead of doing 5 20 minutes run to gain 5x90 tomestones you could do 3 30 minutes run to gain 3x 150 tomes, while also gaining more goetia tomestones, gils, seals, and chests at the end.

CC just slows us down in the current meta.

Only if its effect is marginal, and that's mostly because dungeons are far too easy. Even right now Arm's Length slowing all ennemies make pulling lots of them far less stressful, as is holy spamming to stun them. These are already CC. Likewise, if you could paralyze all mobs so that they won't hit you as much, runs would go smoother.

As for the topic overall: you're basically describing deep dungeons.

Yes, someone already point that, and I really think we could have more dungeons inspired by that design.

[Lersayil]

No,they're not. People are adamant about how they don't want to spend too much time doing the dungeons. So, if having additionnal rewards can help you skip a run entirely, it's far from moot.
Instead of doing 5 20 minutes run to gain 5x90 tomestones you could do 3 30 minutes run to gain 3x 150 tomes, while also gaining more goetia tomestones, gils, seals, and chests at the end.

Your example saves roughly 10 minutes and 2 queue times. We are also presuming no other source of tomestones. It could work, but might lead to conflicts between those that just want to get the dungeon over with, with those that want to run it less (aka low queue vs high queue jobs).

Only if its effect is marginal, and that's mostly because dungeons are far too easy. Even right now Arm's Length slowing all ennemies make pulling lots of them far less stressful, as is holy spamming to stun them. These are already CC. Likewise, if you could paralyze all mobs so that they won't hit you as much, runs would go smoother.

Depends on what you mean by CC then. Most people here (including me) seem to presume you mean the classical hard CC (i.e sheep from wow, or Repose here). The kind that takes mobs out of the fight thus upping clear time. The ones you listed above provide damage reduction, but do not lengthen kill time.

Which could be fine, but if you make them mandatory it would bring a new can of different kind of meta worms of "have" and "have not" jobs. And lets be honest, I would not trust the average roulette runner to use such tools properly in a mandatory setting.

[Reynhart]

Your example saves roughly 10 minutes and 2 queue times.

It also saves daily allowances. If, like some people claim, modern MMO players want to go fast because they can't spend that much time playing an MMO, having less evenings to commit to FFXIV will also help them. After all, if you're ready to spend 20 minutes on the game, adding 10 minutes is not that taxing.

It could work, but might lead to conflicts between those that just want to get the dungeon over with, with those that want to run it less (aka low queue vs high queue jobs).

Even with low queue jobs, you'll still have to spend less time to cap your tomestones, or to get a full set of uncapped tomestones.

Depends on what you mean by CC then. Most people here (including me) seem to presume you mean the classical hard CC (i.e sheep from wow, or Repose here). The kind that takes mobs out of the fight thus upping clear time. The ones you listed above provide damage reduction, but do not lengthen kill time.

They are both CC by the broad definition. But I wouldn't define CC as simply "upping" clear time, they are here to make the run easier. Interrupting monsters in the Twinning help you take less damage, sleeping mobs just before a boss gate helps you not kill everything, stunning or sleeping a bee before final string could save your tank, etc...I think it was in A2 where a mob used to greatly buff the defense of others...split him from the group, sleep it, AoE the rest and come back for him when he's alone. We could also imagine dungeons with pits, where you could knockback monsters to kill them instantly, or sleep them on a trap while you attack another group...frankly, with a little creativity, dungeons could be much more enjoyable.

Which could be fine, but if you make them mandatory it would bring a new can of different kind of meta worms of "have" and "have not" jobs.

They would be better but nowhere near mandatory, and let's be honest, no one will take a duty finder penalty of 30min just because not having CC makes you lose 5, especially since you'd have to queue for the content again. Moreover, CC would still be spread among every jobs, so you wouldn't end with a single "debuffer" job, while every other would have to do it the hard way.

[Lersayil]

Snip

I still stand by my statement that tomestone capping is a moot point to argue about in this case. It requires minimal time investment capping as is, basing changes like this on them is... for a lack of better word in my limited english dictionary: eh.

In my opinion daily chores like this should be kept as linear as possible. Introducing choice into a random group interraction is just conflict waiting to happen, or a meta waiting to solidify, throwing the choice out the window.

We seem to agree that deep dungeons already sorta cover this niche. No need to bring it in to regular dungeons.

The CC examples you brought up this time range from stuff we already have and use (interruptions) through cheese (boss gating adds) to outright gimmicky (knockback into pits). You also specifically brought up sleeping mobs and leaving them alive to kill separately from a group.

The last 3 of these examples I would classify (personal opinion) as tedium and unfun incarnate, and really wish they never become a thing in any regularly run content.

[Reynhart]

It requires minimal time investment capping as is, basing changes like this on them is... for a lack of better word in my limited english dictionary: eh.

Lots of posts on this topic predicted the apocalypse because it could require people to spend 5 more minutes into a single dungeon...so, no, it seems that even in the time Investment is limited, reducing it is apparently what everyone wants.

We seem to agree that deep dungeons already sorta cover this niche. No need to bring it in to regular dungeons.

We do...except that I don't think it should stay a niche. Dungeons have already very few meaningful design or bosses, so they could be replaced by random ones like a 3-floor Deep Dungeon...and sometimes including random bosses, too. Frankly, if you met something else that the Lava Scorption at the end of Sohm Al HM, you wouldn't have bat an eye.

The CC examples you brought up this time range from stuff we already have and use (interruptions) through cheese (boss gating adds) to outright gimmicky (knockback into pits). You also specifically brought up sleeping mobs and leaving them alive to kill separately from a group.

I'd say it's something we had and used, apart from the recent addition of "interruption". When was the last time where using CC actually had a strategic use ? The last time someone actually used Sleep or Repose with meaningful (though not game-breaking) results ?

The last 3 of these examples I would classify (personal opinion) as tedium and unfun incarnate, and really wish they never become a thing in any regularly run content.[/QUOTE]

[Shurrikhan]

Except that we're talking about "less reward" faster. Going through Sastasha by ignoring all optionnal rooms is faster, but it would give you less reward. Of course, once you decide to do the full run, killing mobs faster...will be faster.

The optimal path is the one that has the most reward per time spent, including time spent in queue. If a lesser reward nonetheless ends up more efficient due to the more greatly reduced time spent, you at best create a divide between premades quickly spamming the dungeon and DF DPS who'd rather earn back their time spent in queue with a full clear.

Ramping up rewards merely moves the balancing point for rewards; it does not suddenly fix all balancing issues.

The point is, why the obsession with the two-in-one deal? Why not just have the option of a harder/longer and easier/shorter dungeons runs altogether, ideally in different roulettes, saving us the conflicts of interest? Those who wanted A are presented with something in which to best do A; those who wanted B are presented with something in which to best do B.

Tl;dr: I want harder, longer dungeons. But I want a party who does, too. Let me choose what I want rather than leaving that for in-instance arguments from which the tank or healer will almost certainly leave in a puff of pettiness and lose more efficiency than any other factor could have been responsible for until we inevitably all just go the shortest route as to avoid dealing with drama.