Revelations from Patch 5.1

[ShadowMeowth]

It's the final countdown!

Emet-Selch wasn't interested in granting a reprieve to anyone, though? The Ascians had to slow the tilt of Light on the First, it was going too fast. Vauthry was created as a stopgap to prevent that, not to do anyone any favors. Emet-Selch's suggestion sounded wicked and cruel because it was? There is no positive way to spin what he did there. :s He talked over a frightened woman about using her as a vessel to corrupt her unborn baby so his father could rule the world. And when her HUSBAND consented, he did it to her, regardless of her obvious fear. That is skeevy for both Emet-Selch AND the former mayor. (Not to mention the whole bit that he doesn't see any of us as "really alive".)

It seems disingenous of Emet-Selch to "sow the seeds of chaos" and then blame humanity for the result in general, particularly in Vauthry's case. Emet-Selch stacked that deck. Sin Eaters corrupt. Take Titania for instance, the Lightwarden changed them into a twisted mockery of the benevolent ruler they were said to be. Tesleen was caring and selfless but once corrupted, she was unable to be anything other than a monster. Vauthry would be no exception. He never had a chance to act of his own free will. Everything he did was through the lens of a Lightwarden, apparently the strongest one, that was changing him from birth. I would argue he was "Innocence" because the real him, the one free of the Lightwarden, never had a chance to do anything in life. He was a prisoner from birth.

*playing The Final Countdown*

True, though I placed the blame on both. It was not my intention to spin Emet's actions: it was wrong. I have to say, though, that even if I get why everyone got mad at him about the not-really-alive thing, it is basically humanity trampling on ants, so we are hardly the ones to judge. If ants were to judge us, our point of view would be to them the same as Emet's. But I digress.

The whole Vauthry thing reminds me of some sort of tempering and was both temperer and tempered. What was exactly what allowed Vauthry to control the sin eaters? I mean, sure, he is a Lightwarden, but he is both sin eater and man: perhaps the difference was that Vauthry had a will of his own and that gave him power. And he was born like this, not transformed like Titania and Tesleen. The soul is broken when you transform into a sin eater, right? Then did Vauthry manage to keep his soul intact when he transformed into Innocence? Those are interesting questions.

This is, again, a matter of how exactly tempering affects people and how accountable for their actions they are. Vauthry might be a casualty. The Ascians are this as well. And maybe even us. All of this roots in Hydaelyn and Zodiark tempering the Ancients, and all of this was glossed over in 5.1. I assume they are saving the big guns for later.

[Berteaux_Braumegain]

It's the final countdown!

Emet-Selch wasn't interested in granting a reprieve to anyone, though? The Ascians had to slow the tilt of Light on the First, it was going too fast. Vauthry was created as a stopgap to prevent that, not to do anyone any favors. Emet-Selch's suggestion sounded wicked and cruel because it was? There is no positive way to spin what he did there. :s He talked over a frightened woman about using her as a vessel to corrupt her unborn baby so his father could rule the world. And when her HUSBAND consented, he did it to her, regardless of her obvious fear. ("Left the decision to Vauthry's father"? How about his mother, lmao, she's people too, and it's sort of her body) That is skeevy for both Emet-Selch AND the former mayor. (Not to mention the whole bit that he doesn't see any of us as "really alive".)

It seems disingenous of Emet-Selch to "sow the seeds of chaos" and then blame humanity for the result in general, particularly in Vauthry's case. Emet-Selch stacked that deck. Sin Eaters corrupt. Take Titania for instance, the Lightwarden changed them into a twisted mockery of the benevolent ruler they were said to be. Tesleen was caring and selfless but once corrupted, she was unable to be anything other than a monster. Vauthry would be no exception. He never had a chance to act of his own free will. Everything he did was through the lens of a Lightwarden, apparently the strongest one, that was changing him from birth. (The "half Sin Eater" bit seemed a lie on his father's part, you can't be half anything when you were already a whole Hume infant in the womb. Even Y'shtola remarked the Warden "took control" of Vauthry, implying they were two separate entities.) I would argue he was "Innocence" because the real him, the one free of the Lightwarden, never had a chance to do anything in life. He was a prisoner from birth.

I'd be all for Vauthry keeping memories and living to have his own life. He and his mother were casualties of the Ascians' shenanigans. They would deserve that. But since that is not possible, I'd settle for just being able once to say "hey, guys, this isn't how it was at all". As it stands, there IS no sympathy for what happened there, for him. We let the lie perpetuate that he was evil by choice, and not like every other character corrupted by a Sin Eater, trapped in a body he no longer truly controlled.

I was also surprised at the lack of discussion about how

crazy Vauthry Sr. (or whatever his name was) was. You'd think his right-hand man would have noticed some signs of it, particularly in the lead-up to Vauthry taking the reins himself.

[Puksi]

*playing The Final Countdown*

True, though I placed the blame on both. It was not my intention to spin Emet's actions: it was wrong. I have to say, though, that even if I get why everyone got mad at him about the not-really-alive thing, it is basically humanity trampling on ants, so we are hardly the ones to judge. If ants were to judge us, our point of view would be to them the same as Emet's. But I digress.

The whole Vauthry thing reminds me of some sort of tempering and was both temperer and tempered. What was exactly what allowed Vauthry to control the sin eaters? I mean, sure, he is a Lightwarden, but he is both sin eater and man: perhaps the difference was that Vauthry had a will of his own and that gave him power. And he was born like this, not transformed like Titania and Tesleen. The soul is broken when you transform into a sin eater, right? Then did Vauthry manage to keep his soul intact when he transformed into Innocence? Those are interesting questions.

This is, again, a matter of how exactly tempering affects people and how accountable for their actions they are. Vauthry might be a casualty. The Ascians are this as well. And maybe even us. All of this roots in Hydaelyn and Zodiark tempering the Ancients, and all of this was glossed over in 5.1. I assume they are saving the big guns for later.

I was also surprised at the lack of discussion about how

crazy Vauthry Sr. (or whatever his name was) was. You'd think his right-hand man would have noticed some signs of it, particularly in the lead-up to Vauthry taking the reins himself.

Ten, nine, eight

"Man and sin eater both" = man corrupted by a Sin Eater, though. It was a transformation, Emet-Selch simply did it while Vauthry was still in the womb. Vauthry would still have been a full Hume, Sin Eater corruption wouldn't change that part, though the corruption clearly did change him physically as well as mentally. Humes don't get to be 15-20 feet tall naturally, it actually really rattled my immersion no one ever mentioned that lmao. In the end, Titania was the same situation, a living being overtaken by a Lightwarden. In Japan, they and Vauthry even shared a speech pattern meant to indicate they were "off".

The WoL's soul was already being described as in real danger from corruption even before Innocence, and that was with the blessing of Hydaelyn protecting them. Vauthry would have no chance resisting it at all. Perhaps Emet-Selch somehow managed to pace the corruption, but it was still there, and by the time we encounter Vauthry, he was already at the end of it. And the Ascians were pulling his strings in other ways, see the Cardinal Virtues.

Lesser Sin Eaters were likened to an insect colony acting on behalf of its queen. They were ultimately following the power of the Lightwarden (see Holminster Switch and Philia )--and the Lightwarden's instincts were funneled through a corrupted parody of Vauthry.

It seems a bit of a stretch to compare what the Ascians are doing to trampling an anthill, when discussing the bodily autonomy of a mother and child, no less. And while the theorycrafting on Tempering is interesting, there is still one very large difference between Vauthry and Emet-Selch: Vauthry was never given a choice if he wanted to be "Tempered" or not. The people of The First were never given a choice if they wanted to sacrifice themselves, as Zodiark was summoned by willing sacrifices. Emet-Selch was able to choose his path with free will, fully aware of the consequences it could bring to be tempered by an Elder Primal (although he said he would still have done everything he's done regardless of tempering).

@Berteaux - I know, it was so frustrating! It seems really unlikely that someone who would do that would show no outward signs of callousness, he clearly had no problem with casualties--and apparently the citizenry was unhappy enough they were being stirred against him? Huh?

I don't want to believe Eulmore is just an afterthought like Ala Mhigo seemed to be in Stormblood, but it really does seem like that is the case. I've seen more consistency in a Saturday morning cartoon. :s
(Also wow letting that one lady who tried to have her maid murdered blame her acts on "Vauthry's society" was just a bit much lmao)

[lycropath]

5.1 MSQ thoughts

WTH Gaius casually holds back Estinien's jump with one hand, and then blocks Gaius' attack from behind? Is this a buff from the resonant? Zenos demonstrated no ability to use shields when he was just a normie Garlean; he was just a really good weaponmaster.

Zenos's barrier is the same graphic effect as the Barrier he meditates in when he does Storm, Swell, Sword.

[Remedi]

On the subject of Zenos...

With how Ascian-like he is already, it would be hilariously ironic if it went full circle and he ended up just getting tempered by Zodiark after believing he could actually manipulate a primal of his magnitude (They'd have to make up a really, really good explanation for me to actually accept him being strong enough to overtake even a weakened Zodiark with an artificial Echo).

It would certainly even the playing field for the Ascians now that Elidibus is the only remaining overlord and I'd really like for one of Zenos' schemes blow up in his face for once.

ten thousand words

I feel that we are heading towards Zenos being the shadowlord of the story and he will be controlling Zodiark for real, I don't see the Elidubus of now surviving 5.3, while Zenos is idd going to become something more, there's this evil incarnate vibe that I feel from him, by how he interacts with ppl and events that I can see them molding into the final boss of the arc..........................and then we'll have LAVOS

@Lycropath Idd nothing that was shown in the battle was new, the battle just gave context to how strong we actually were in the Ala mhigo fight

[ShadowMeowth]

Ten, nine, eight

It seems a bit of a stretch to compare what the Ascians are doing to trampling an anthill, when discussing the bodily autonomy of a mother and child, no less. And while the theorycrafting on Tempering is interesting, there is still one very large difference between Vauthry and Emet-Selch: Vauthry was never given a choice if he wanted to be "Tempered" or not. The people of The First were never given a choice if they wanted to sacrifice themselves, as Zodiark was summoned by willing sacrifices. Emet-Selch was able to choose his path with free will, fully aware of the consequences it could bring to be tempered by an Elder Primal (although he said he would still have done everything he's done regardless of tempering).

Falalalala ~

I do not see it as a stretch, though. We humans do all kinds of experimentation not even with animals, but with our own kind. And if for unsundered Ascians we are less than human, welp. My point is that we are hardly in the situation to judge the Ascians as evil because of their deeds. Anyways, as Emet said, it is a matter of moral relativism and I am not going to delve into that.

And about Zodiark's tempering, I highly doubt the Ancients knew summoning Him would temper them. As far as we know, their greater experiments about summoning, or phantomology as they called it, were the Guardian Forces as we see in Akadaemia Anyder. So I would not blame them for their own tempering. If anything, I would blame those who summoned Hydaelyn, because they knew the consequences and still went through that. I have quite the issues with the implications of Hydaelyn's summoning, but that is material for a whole different debate.-

[DaBigDorf]

ten thousand words

Idd nothing that was shown in the battle was new, the battle just gave context to how strong we actually were in the Ala mhigo fight

Q W E R T Y U I O P A S D F
Now I know my Q W Es

Basically Gaius and Estinien get to play the role of Piccolo and Krillin to our Goku

[Puksi]

Falalalala ~

I do not see it as a stretch, though. We humans do all kinds of experimentation not even with animals, but with our own kind. And if for unsundered Ascians we are less than human, welp. My point is that we are hardly in the situation to judge the Ascians as evil because of their deeds. Anyways, as Emet said, it is a matter of moral relativism and I am not going to delve into that.

And about Zodiark's tempering, I highly doubt the Ancients knew summoning Him would temper them. As far as we know, their greater experiments about summoning, or phantomology as they called it, were the Guardian Forces as we see in Akadaemia Anyder. So I would not blame them for their own tempering. If anything, I would blame those who summoned Hydaelyn, because they knew the consequences and still went through that. I have quite the issues with the implications of Hydaelyn's summoning, but that is material for a whole different debate.-

This character limit is about as well-planned as the Eulmore arc

"Moral relativism" from an unreliable narrator like Emet-Selch was not something I was inclined to take as a gospel truth. If you do, his optional dialogue very much implied they knew they would be tempered -- "It was only natural", "There is no resisting such power". While their ultimate motivation was very sad, and I feel a lot of sympathy for their losses, their methods made them monsters, and I'm glad the story narrative didn't have us lay down to their judgment on our worth, to their hubris, it would be a very short MMO if we had. I'm glad OUR losses were shown to matter. To be honest I felt far more heroic punching an auracite hole through Emet-Selch than I did standing before Vauthry as he lay dying, begging me for help.

If you want to compare it to humans experimenting on other humans, when humans do that without consent, it's a crime? There are consequences? It's an atrocity? Of course the Ascians can be judged, the same as the Garleans can be judged, the same as GCs can be judged, the same way Asahi can be judged, etc. The Ancients fell from an apparently unintended tragedy. Emet-Selch and his fellows sought to deliver that same level of destruction on the shards, but very much on purpose, seeing our lives as nothing worthwhile. It is not their decision to make, any more than it was his--or the ex-mayor's--place to have decided the fate of Vauthry and his mother. Emet-Selch's unwitting "partners" through the centuries, never knowing his true nature, or purpose, or how little he really thought of them, deserved truth. The children he sired with those partners--and I'm sure that was not the first time he expressed disappointment/disgust when they failed to meet his lofty standards--deserved to know they were worthwhile. The unknown person he used for a corporeal form on the First deserved to not be his meat puppet.

We defended ourselves, and we SHOULD have.

But yeah, another debate, lmao. I'm just here wishing the writers would let us acknowledge the situation they created in Eulmore. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[JeanneOrnitier]

Well now that I seem to have solved my crashing issue, more MSQ thoughts:

-Eulmore stuff was all great, I love the Chais.
-Also glad to see G'raha's eyes come back, I can't wait to see what they come up with.
-If not only the Garlean capital but even the palace is mapped and modeled, I'm sure we'll be returning here at some point, even if it's just as a dungeon.
-Like my feels on Ryne, I hope this isn't the last we've seen of Estinien in the MSQ. We just got him back, don't go again!
-I've said it before and I will say it until this storyline ends, but I desperately hope Zenos's plans blow up in his face. I'm so sick and tired of him and would much rather fight the actual Zodiark than Zenos-diark. I'm assuming/hoping the robed man who approached him is working for Elidibus and this is tied into the stuff Elidibus was planning on the moon at the end of 5.0.
-WHAT WAS THAT ENDING

[Chewy2nd]

Post MSQ thingy

There's now a Talos in the Derelicts helping tidy up!