Revelations from Patch 5.1

[Puksi]

*playing The Final Countdown*

True, though I placed the blame on both. It was not my intention to spin Emet's actions: it was wrong. I have to say, though, that even if I get why everyone got mad at him about the not-really-alive thing, it is basically humanity trampling on ants, so we are hardly the ones to judge. If ants were to judge us, our point of view would be to them the same as Emet's. But I digress.

The whole Vauthry thing reminds me of some sort of tempering and was both temperer and tempered. What was exactly what allowed Vauthry to control the sin eaters? I mean, sure, he is a Lightwarden, but he is both sin eater and man: perhaps the difference was that Vauthry had a will of his own and that gave him power. And he was born like this, not transformed like Titania and Tesleen. The soul is broken when you transform into a sin eater, right? Then did Vauthry manage to keep his soul intact when he transformed into Innocence? Those are interesting questions.

This is, again, a matter of how exactly tempering affects people and how accountable for their actions they are. Vauthry might be a casualty. The Ascians are this as well. And maybe even us. All of this roots in Hydaelyn and Zodiark tempering the Ancients, and all of this was glossed over in 5.1. I assume they are saving the big guns for later.

I was also surprised at the lack of discussion about how

crazy Vauthry Sr. (or whatever his name was) was. You'd think his right-hand man would have noticed some signs of it, particularly in the lead-up to Vauthry taking the reins himself.

Ten, nine, eight

"Man and sin eater both" = man corrupted by a Sin Eater, though. It was a transformation, Emet-Selch simply did it while Vauthry was still in the womb. Vauthry would still have been a full Hume, Sin Eater corruption wouldn't change that part, though the corruption clearly did change him physically as well as mentally. Humes don't get to be 15-20 feet tall naturally, it actually really rattled my immersion no one ever mentioned that lmao. In the end, Titania was the same situation, a living being overtaken by a Lightwarden. In Japan, they and Vauthry even shared a speech pattern meant to indicate they were "off".

The WoL's soul was already being described as in real danger from corruption even before Innocence, and that was with the blessing of Hydaelyn protecting them. Vauthry would have no chance resisting it at all. Perhaps Emet-Selch somehow managed to pace the corruption, but it was still there, and by the time we encounter Vauthry, he was already at the end of it. And the Ascians were pulling his strings in other ways, see the Cardinal Virtues.

Lesser Sin Eaters were likened to an insect colony acting on behalf of its queen. They were ultimately following the power of the Lightwarden (see Holminster Switch and Philia )--and the Lightwarden's instincts were funneled through a corrupted parody of Vauthry.

It seems a bit of a stretch to compare what the Ascians are doing to trampling an anthill, when discussing the bodily autonomy of a mother and child, no less. And while the theorycrafting on Tempering is interesting, there is still one very large difference between Vauthry and Emet-Selch: Vauthry was never given a choice if he wanted to be "Tempered" or not. The people of The First were never given a choice if they wanted to sacrifice themselves, as Zodiark was summoned by willing sacrifices. Emet-Selch was able to choose his path with free will, fully aware of the consequences it could bring to be tempered by an Elder Primal (although he said he would still have done everything he's done regardless of tempering).

@Berteaux - I know, it was so frustrating! It seems really unlikely that someone who would do that would show no outward signs of callousness, he clearly had no problem with casualties--and apparently the citizenry was unhappy enough they were being stirred against him? Huh?

I don't want to believe Eulmore is just an afterthought like Ala Mhigo seemed to be in Stormblood, but it really does seem like that is the case. I've seen more consistency in a Saturday morning cartoon. :s
(Also wow letting that one lady who tried to have her maid murdered blame her acts on "Vauthry's society" was just a bit much lmao)

[ShadowMeowth]

Ten, nine, eight

It seems a bit of a stretch to compare what the Ascians are doing to trampling an anthill, when discussing the bodily autonomy of a mother and child, no less. And while the theorycrafting on Tempering is interesting, there is still one very large difference between Vauthry and Emet-Selch: Vauthry was never given a choice if he wanted to be "Tempered" or not. The people of The First were never given a choice if they wanted to sacrifice themselves, as Zodiark was summoned by willing sacrifices. Emet-Selch was able to choose his path with free will, fully aware of the consequences it could bring to be tempered by an Elder Primal (although he said he would still have done everything he's done regardless of tempering).

Falalalala ~

I do not see it as a stretch, though. We humans do all kinds of experimentation not even with animals, but with our own kind. And if for unsundered Ascians we are less than human, welp. My point is that we are hardly in the situation to judge the Ascians as evil because of their deeds. Anyways, as Emet said, it is a matter of moral relativism and I am not going to delve into that.

And about Zodiark's tempering, I highly doubt the Ancients knew summoning Him would temper them. As far as we know, their greater experiments about summoning, or phantomology as they called it, were the Guardian Forces as we see in Akadaemia Anyder. So I would not blame them for their own tempering. If anything, I would blame those who summoned Hydaelyn, because they knew the consequences and still went through that. I have quite the issues with the implications of Hydaelyn's summoning, but that is material for a whole different debate.-

[Puksi]

Falalalala ~

I do not see it as a stretch, though. We humans do all kinds of experimentation not even with animals, but with our own kind. And if for unsundered Ascians we are less than human, welp. My point is that we are hardly in the situation to judge the Ascians as evil because of their deeds. Anyways, as Emet said, it is a matter of moral relativism and I am not going to delve into that.

And about Zodiark's tempering, I highly doubt the Ancients knew summoning Him would temper them. As far as we know, their greater experiments about summoning, or phantomology as they called it, were the Guardian Forces as we see in Akadaemia Anyder. So I would not blame them for their own tempering. If anything, I would blame those who summoned Hydaelyn, because they knew the consequences and still went through that. I have quite the issues with the implications of Hydaelyn's summoning, but that is material for a whole different debate.-

This character limit is about as well-planned as the Eulmore arc

"Moral relativism" from an unreliable narrator like Emet-Selch was not something I was inclined to take as a gospel truth. If you do, his optional dialogue very much implied they knew they would be tempered -- "It was only natural", "There is no resisting such power". While their ultimate motivation was very sad, and I feel a lot of sympathy for their losses, their methods made them monsters, and I'm glad the story narrative didn't have us lay down to their judgment on our worth, to their hubris, it would be a very short MMO if we had. I'm glad OUR losses were shown to matter. To be honest I felt far more heroic punching an auracite hole through Emet-Selch than I did standing before Vauthry as he lay dying, begging me for help.

If you want to compare it to humans experimenting on other humans, when humans do that without consent, it's a crime? There are consequences? It's an atrocity? Of course the Ascians can be judged, the same as the Garleans can be judged, the same as GCs can be judged, the same way Asahi can be judged, etc. The Ancients fell from an apparently unintended tragedy. Emet-Selch and his fellows sought to deliver that same level of destruction on the shards, but very much on purpose, seeing our lives as nothing worthwhile. It is not their decision to make, any more than it was his--or the ex-mayor's--place to have decided the fate of Vauthry and his mother. Emet-Selch's unwitting "partners" through the centuries, never knowing his true nature, or purpose, or how little he really thought of them, deserved truth. The children he sired with those partners--and I'm sure that was not the first time he expressed disappointment/disgust when they failed to meet his lofty standards--deserved to know they were worthwhile. The unknown person he used for a corporeal form on the First deserved to not be his meat puppet.

We defended ourselves, and we SHOULD have.

But yeah, another debate, lmao. I'm just here wishing the writers would let us acknowledge the situation they created in Eulmore. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯