Bring back crowd control. Bring back branching dungeons. Bring back ADVENTURE.

[linay]

Doesn't even have to be that simple. Could make it so that maybe your party has more ranged dealers than melee and the decisions you make in the dungeon can influence you to get a boss that's particularly easier to deal with as a caster or ranged job than a melee one. Using hints given through the dungeon or experience with it. Or create different trap patterns on the floor that the party has to look at the notes ahead of time to memorize where is safe to actually run through without dying. Instead of just "every run I've been here, this rile and this tile are always safe to run to, and it always will be" type deals.

That wouldn't work as duties (with some notable exceptions) are meant to be trivialized over time with gear and level increase. Sooner or later those kinds of mechanics would just be ignored.

People would just always choose the quickest/easiest path and stick to it, regardless of the rewards. If people meet a disagreement, then someone is probably gonna get kicked.
So instead of multiple pathways leading to a different boss/reward, why not instead be different linear pathways per run. One run you go left, another run you go right. Clear times will always be the same (player skill excluded), but at least you'll be seeing more of a dungeon (maybe different bosses, too).

Kinda like Left 4 Dead 2, where the AI Director would close up some pathways and have you go down a different pathway (though the safe room would always be the same).

That would be the only way I agree to multiple branches in a dungeon, where the dungeon chooses the path for you each run and closes the other paths.

[Valic]

That wouldn't work as duties (with some notable exceptions) are meant to be trivialized over time with gear and level increase. Sooner or later those kinds of mechanics would just be ignored.

Even with gear and level, you can't ignore mechanics that can literally define you to die otherwise. The only point where mechanics should go ignored is when the content is dead/gone, meaning when it's able to be unsync'd. In my example, you could make a dungeon where the boss has a circular aoe around him in a large length that puts doom on the players that stand in it. However at a range, anyone can be outside of it and still deal damage, putting ranged/casters at more of an advantage rather than melee's having to dip in to dps then dip out just to avoid doom or rely fully on a healer ressing them until they're brink of death ridden. The other option being a boss that puts debuffs on players who out of range with doom, and a consistent debuff applied that causes heavy damage down and high vulnerability up, forcing most casters and ranged dealers to not be able to hold still or deal anywhere near as much damage as they normally do. Only removed when the player deals a melee based attack (kinda like how leviathan denies ranged or caster depending on the target). That way melee is preferred in the later half and ranged in the former... ultimately the party would decide which path would be more optimal and faster. As an example, say the party has a white mage, a dragoon, a black mage, and a paladin. 2 melee, 2 casters in a party of 4. Well, the white mage has some pretty nice gear and WHM's have really nice damage, the BLM is also really well geared and BLM's are known hard hitters. PLD's also have a lil bit more ranged than some tanks to boot and dragoons while not many still can range a bit more often than other melee jobs. So in that scenario, the ranged boss would be more optimal to face and more up-time to be faster.

Now let's say you have a party of a dark knight, a monk, a scholar, and a red mage. Well, this is obvious at this point... MNK and DRK don't have much ranged, SCH and RED do but RDM also offers some melee abilities/support and SCH has more shields than heals to cover any aoe's the boss does up close to melees. So perhaps the melee boss would be more optimal than the boss that would most of the group at bay. This type of mechanic would cause parties to actually communicate and discuss a strategy in how they would handle the boss, and actually give players a reason to ask why they should do what they should do. Not just mindless repeat of rotation or beat the boss by dodging the things like a simon says layout always does. This gives players a reason to understand their abilities functionality and make a plan together..... ALMOST LIKE A REAL ADVENTURE???? HRRRRM

After it's unsyncable, of course people will be able to do whatever and ignore it all, but as being a current dungeon for a whole year or two that can show up in roulettes too... It'd be a neat idea to force players to understand how to learn other roles than their own and decide as a group what would be the best way to deal with what they're given. Duties don't HAVE to be trivial grinds every single time.

Keep in mind, my example is a mild and a bit extremist idea of one way a dungeon's "pathing" could change so that the dungeon you run isn't just a straight line. Where your group can actually have a choice that impacts how quick the run is and what casualties you'll be able to afford in clearing certain portions of the dungeon. It's not a perfect idea for a set of mechanics and way to create differing paths/mechanics for a dungeon, but it is an idea of how it can be done. Personally, I'd prefer more dungeon content that actually requires you to read, put puzzles together, understand hints, and decipher meanings found in our lore. That's what creates an immersive experience and an interesting dungeon, something that isn't the common. It's partially why so many people loved the 2nd boss of Bardam's Mettle. Finally a boss fight that isn't just "burn it", but instead forces the players to understand how aoe's work and what patterns to take in order to survive and thus beat the boss. Not to mention while the mechanics are the same every time you run that boss, the positioning of some aoe's and how the players move won't always be the same... This makes a GOOD boss fight that depends on the coordination and different types of players/parties that have to also learn how to adapt on the fly based on the visual/audio cues given to them by the boss's mechanics.

[linay]

Duties don't HAVE to be trivial grinds every single time.

Unless we're talking about bosses, which we're not as we're talking about dungeon layouts, they will never get too difficult that they wouldn't be trivialized even within the same expansion. (And even dungeon bosses are not immune, see the final boss of The Burn even during Stormblood.)

And I doubt they would make dungeons that much more difficult considering dungeons are required content in this game and dungeon roulettes are a central part of the day-to-day gameplay. They even provide easier modes for solo instances now, so think about that philosophy first when considering new ideas for dungeons.

[Valic]

Unless we're talking about bosses, which we're not as we're talking about dungeon layouts, they will never get too difficult that they wouldn't be trivialized even within the same expansion. (And even dungeon bosses are not immune, see the final boss of The Burn even during Stormblood.)

And I doubt they would make dungeons that much more difficult considering dungeons are required content in this game and dungeon roulettes are a central part of the day-to-day gameplay. They even provide easier modes for solo instances now, so think about that philosophy first when considering new ideas for dungeons.

Keep in mind this is a progressively skyward mmo... If it doesn't get harder, ur just doing everything you're already doing from previous expansions. Personally I've felt mechanics and parts of this game get progressively more difficult... It should be that way. I agree the idea to make solo instances have optional easier modes is pretty bad as those were good tests of you having to know your damn job. Those aside, if you read more than just the bold in my post... you can do more to a dungeon than just change the bosses to affect the layout of it. In my example, I offered the idea of hints that provide the party with information regarding 2 bosses in the instance that have mechanics that cater to specific roles and the players can decide which boss they fight next say... as the 2nd boss. One of two choices based on the party's composition/decision.

All this said, it is indeed possible to make bosses and dungeons not trivial through gear/level/stats. They just need to be more creative in how they do it. Like another earlier example, a map marking what tiles/roadway in the dungeon causes instant death when stood on, or where players need to stand in order to deactivate a trap and open the door. Otherwise you're wasting time or having your healer ress everyone constantly, leading into a pull with no MP or everyone with death debuffs. Well geared or not, having debuffs that make your dps go down, makes a slower run overall, and the decisions made can impact the overall effort. These are the kinda choices dungeons need more of to actually be adventurous and enjoyable imo.

[linay]

Keep in mind this is a progressively skyward mmo... If it doesn't get harder, ur just doing everything you're already doing from previous expansions. Personally I've felt mechanics and parts of this game get progressively more difficult... It should be that way. I agree the idea to make solo instances have optional easier modes is pretty bad as those were good tests of you having to know your damn job. Those aside, if you read more than just the bold in my post... you can do more to a dungeon than just change the bosses to affect the layout of it. In my example, I offered the idea of hints that provide the party with information regarding 2 bosses in the instance that have mechanics that cater to specific roles and the players can decide which boss they fight next say... as the 2nd boss. One of two choices based on the party's composition/decision.

All this said, it is indeed possible to make bosses and dungeons not trivial through gear/level/stats. They just need to be more creative in how they do it. Like another earlier example, a map marking what tiles/roadway in the dungeon causes instant death when stood on, or where players need to stand in order to deactivate a trap and open the door. Otherwise you're wasting time or having your healer ress everyone constantly, leading into a pull with no MP or everyone with death debuffs. Well geared or not, having debuffs that make your dps go down, makes a slower run overall, and the decisions made can impact the overall effort. These are the kinda choices dungeons need more of to actually be adventurous and enjoyable imo.

It's not that they can't do it, but I just doubt whether there is any desire on the dev's part regarding normal dungeon designs, although maybe it could work for certain optional dungeons. Then again, maybe not if those dungeons are meant to be included in expert roulette.

[Valic]

It's not that they can't do it, but I just doubt whether there is any desire on the dev's part regarding normal dungeon designs, although maybe it could work for certain optional dungeons. Then again, maybe not if those dungeons are meant to be included in expert roulette.

Even if they're not, there's still 50/60/70/80 roulette content. There's desire in the community so there should be desire from the devs but it's always gonna be just "we don't have the time, money, or manpower to implement these types of changes, 1.0 coding" or etc excuses like that when really it'll be fear of changing the format up and wasting creative ideas and effort on that type of content. Reality is, they have a plan they've stuck to and they're not gonna move from it because its how they have their workflow setup, scheduled, and works as far as players care. Even if it will never be what players would like to see, they know what they do players will still like and be enough for them.

[TheRogueX]

Keep in mind this is a progressively skyward mmo... If it doesn't get harder, ur just doing everything you're already doing from previous expansions. Personally I've felt mechanics and parts of this game get progressively more difficult... It should be that way.

lol, nothing in this game gets harder. The numbers get bigger and there might be a new* mechanic to deal with, but nothing is hard.

Even the "hardest" content in the game is just memorizing where to stand and how to push buttons in a proper order; It is high school marching band in a video game.

I have been playing MMOs since I was 13 years old. 1999 Everquest. So trust me, I have seen first hand the degradation of the genre. I have more fond memories of challenges and triumph from everquest and FFXI than any theme park treadmill mmo. Many 20 year vets I am sure would agree with me. Why do you think that is?

I played Ultima Online, but that game was so wonky that it's not really applicable to the modern MMO genre. But then I also played games like Anarchy Online, Lineage II, original WoW, and other late 90s/early 2000s MMOs and yeah, while the games were rather primitive compared to now, the challenges were greater and the players were better. There used to be such a thing as horizontal progressions, racial differences, and different builds for the same character class. There used to be more than one way to do most things in these games. FFXIV has completely abandoned that for the "Huge-DPS-or-Bust" crowd. Even things like Enrage mechanics come from the 'we don't want to spend too much time here so if we can't get this done in x minutes cheat kill us to force us to start over' attitude of modern gamers. My first real experience with raids was Antharas in Lineage II.. raids in this are a joke.

[Valic]

lol, nothing in this game gets harder. The numbers get bigger and there might be a new* mechanic to deal with, but nothing is hard.

Even the "hardest" content in the game is just memorizing where to stand and how to push buttons in a proper order; It is high school marching band in a video game.

Tbh, now I'm just not sure we're playing the same game. There was a point where there was an interesting shift from HW into SB that caused a significant amount of difficulty. Mainly because of the large amount of movement now required to dodge randomly placed aoe's with shorter countdowns on when they go off. New mechanics and more punishing numbers are typically what makes difficulty in the majority of games if you're going to try and be a snob about it.

[Lord_Umbra]

lol, nothing in this game gets harder. The numbers get bigger and there might be a new* mechanic to deal with, but nothing is hard.

Even the "hardest" content in the game is just memorizing where to stand and how to push buttons in a proper order; It is high school marching band in a video game.



I played Ultima Online, but that game was so wonky that it's not really applicable to the modern MMO genre. But then I also played games like Anarchy Online, Lineage II, original WoW, and other late 90s/early 2000s MMOs and yeah, while the games were rather primitive compared to now, the challenges were greater and the players were better. There used to be such a thing as horizontal progressions, racial differences, and different builds for the same character class. There used to be more than one way to do most things in these games. FFXIV has completely abandoned that for the "Huge-DPS-or-Bust" crowd. Even things like Enrage mechanics come from the 'we don't want to spend too much time here so if we can't get this done in x minutes cheat kill us to force us to start over' attitude of modern gamers. My first real experience with raids was Antharas in Lineage II.. raids in this are a joke.

Well of course all content is just memorising Fixed figtht patterns, rotations doesn't allow for much randomisation outside of having two set strict patterns otherwise peoples output would be quite low due to random mechanics messing up rotations every couple seconds. To get random mechanics we'd have to ditch Rotations & move to more Action based combat like BDO or Single player stuff like Dark Souls style combat play. Stuff were you wouldn't be heavily punished for missing a rotation click dropping your combo.

As for topic Players no matter the generation always went for most optimal build & most optimal path through content, exploring was & has always been frowned upon in MMOs old & new people want in & out as quickly as possible second content was a day old people would more like Kick you from party if tried to explore the non fastest path even in old MMOs. No one or most don't want to spend a full lockout in a dungeon checking alternative paths.
Raids have gotten more streamlined cause the player base has grown up, most can't afford MMOs the time they could in so called Glory days when all you had going was School.

[Reynhart]

No one or most don't want to spend a full lockout in a dungeon checking alternative paths.

In what world a full run of Sastasha, Toto-Rak or Temple of Qarn would ever come close to take "a full lockout" ?
If you had a bonus reward (including roulette reward) as low as 20% for killing everyone in those dungeons, you'd still have a better reward/time ratio.

What should be done, however, is to redistribute dungeon Xp so that finishing the dungeon would give the main part of xp gain.

Also, dungeons should have secondary objectives bonuses to encourage skill. (No death, don't let any bee use final sting, interrupt at least x casts, etc...)