How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[Kabooa]

This is complete BS. There may be some people that don't mind having little impact in party dps when tanking, but a lot of people do. It doesn't matter if you don't agree or think tanks shouldn't be looking at it, drop the percentage of tanks party dps down too much and a lot of people are going to leave the role, even if they are perfectly balanced down to the last digit within the role.

To which I say: Bye. The DPS role will suit them better.

Tank damage right now is fine.

[Awha]

And the only metrics that matter for a tanks damage comparison is to other tanks.

If people were happy with Stormblood they should be happy now, because Tanks in Stormblood are bringing comparable damage to now. PDPS metrics lead to heavy padding during the last expansion, and once you take the padding out and put it where it belonged, Tanks get dumped hard.

This is a personal preference, but when I am tanking I compare my damage not just around the number but more so the total percentage. While I am not home to look over my own logs or other logs while I might be doing something wrong I do recall that my overall damage contribution is lower which personally feels odd, sure we hit harder and get larger numbers but the overall the total contribution is lower. So sure in a strict sense tanks are doing more damage but overall does not seem that way if. Just my personal observation.

[Reynhart]

You should be doing as much damage as possible and thinking how you can improve that damage.

Which. Has. Nothing. To. Do. With. How. Much. Damage. Other. Roles. Do.
Let me explain like I would for a 5 year old : 99th percentile = Good Tank ! 10th percentile = Bad Tank !

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

The simple fact of the matter is, that it is an undisputed fact, tanks do comparitively less DPS now than we did in previous expansions. Thanks to graphs shown earlier in this forum thread, as evidence to this.

It's also an undisputed fact that we as tanks have even less responsibility now than ever before.

It's also clear than anyone that has played for more than one expansion will know, there is gonna be no major grandios change to tanking, until 6.0 minimum. As any massive overhaul or change will NOT happen until a new expansion.
So you can talk out of your ass about changing things here and there to make tanking less shallow or more engaging but thats at least 2 years away from now.

Asking for the band-aid to bump our damage dealt back up to the same scale as it was in previous expansions is literally the fairest thing we can ask for on the whole.

People advocating for more mitigation are completely clueless to how this game works, as we have more than we ever need, and over mitigating damage becomes pointless and a wasted resource. Even in ultimate, current mitigation will be enough to complete the encounter.

The only one measure tanks have is damage, like sure I keep track of my defensive cooldowns, and know when I have which cooldown up for which tankbuster or raidwide, or which cooldowns I can spare for auto attack damage, because why not make life a bit easier for the healer(s). After that, there is nothing to do but optimize damage. You are literally only trying to fool yourself if you disagree with that.

If you don't care for damage in this game, that's fine, but stay out of endgame because you're only griefing your party, by expecting them to carry you through content. Stick to dungeons or casual content.

[Kabooa]

This is a personal preference, but when I am tanking I compare my damage not just around the number but more so the total percentage. While I am not home to look over my own logs or other logs while I might be doing something wrong I do recall that my overall damage contribution is lower which personally feels odd, sure we hit harder and get larger numbers but the overall the total contribution is lower. So sure in a strict sense tanks are doing more damage but overall does not seem that way if. Just my personal observation.

That's the thing. This thread is predicated on feels, and misusing data.

The real difference between then and now is closer to 2%, and part of that reason is that Tank Stance no longer has a penalty. And that is easily covered by tanks no longer bringing "Vitality" as the sole party bonus, but instead contributing to the 'main stat increase' like everyone else.

Tank contribution is nearly identical now as it was in Stormblood. The 'evidence' is being misused, and the comparison of data is inherently flawed due to two different metrics being used.

The simple fact of the matter is, that it is an undisputed fact, tanks do comparitively less DPS now than we did in previous expansions. Thanks to graphs shown earlier in this forum thread, as evidence to this.

It's also an undisputed fact that we as tanks have even less responsibility now than ever before.

I don't think you understand what undisputed and fact mean.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

The real difference between then and now is closer to 2%, and part of that reason is that Tank Stance no longer has a penalty. And that is easily covered by tanks no longer bringing "Vitality" as the sole party bonus, but instead contributing to the 'main stat increase' like everyone else.

This is complete BS. Tank stance was never a factor as no tank worth their salt used their tank stance outside of the pulling tank, and a WAR lost next to nothing in pulling. So what if we no longer contribute just vit, but instead 1% of all main stats, that literally changes nothing. Tanks do less percentage of damage in the encounters now compared to what we did back in SB or HW, but have nothing in return to compensate this.

I don't think you understand what undisputed and fact mean.

Yes I do, undisputed is where it is accept that it is the truth, but considering you throw out opinion to counter the statement even though you have provided no evidence to counter the statement as being false.

[Awha]

That's the thing. This thread is predicated on feels, and misusing data.

The real difference between then and now is closer to 2%, and part of that reason is that Tank Stance no longer has a penalty. And that is easily covered by tanks no longer bringing "Vitality" as the sole party bonus, but instead contributing to the 'main stat increase' like everyone else.

Tank contribution is nearly identical now as it was in Stormblood. The 'evidence' is being misused, and the comparison of data is inherently flawed due to two different metrics being used.



I don't think you understand what undisputed and fact mean.

Sure it is predicated on feelings, which also influence perception which in turn for some impacts enjoyment. Sure the metric changed which I will not deny, but hey if SE was more upfront with their metrics from the start and did not have such a fear regarding allowing players in how they calculate contribution from the start then maybe we would not be in this spot.

I will be the first to admit that I know my stance is based around feelings, but hey while it is just a graph that graph outside of simply clearing the fight is the only means of feedback I have if I did okay. Also please do not think that I also feel the gap is massive, just that from a personal perspective it is noticeable enough for me to notice. To a degree maybe I am also afraid that if things keep progressing as is the gap will only widen.

[Rhais]

To which I say: Bye. The DPS role will suit them better.

Tank damage right now is fine.

The thing is though that is just your own personal subjective opinion and it is no more right or based on anything more than your personal feelings than people that think tank dps should be higher. You and others keep up this pretense that you have some sort of objective, logical, well reasoned argument for your position. You don't, it's as much based on "feels" as the desire for more dps output from tanks is. And wanting to have a greater share of party dps is not mutually exclusive with carrying out tanking specific responsibilities, people can want both.

[Kabooa]

This is complete BS. Tank stance was never a factor as no tank worth their salt used their tank stance outside of the pulling tank, and a WAR lost next to nothing in pulling. So what if we no longer contribute just vit, but instead 1% of all main stats, that literally changes nothing. Tanks do less percentage of damage in the encounters now compared to what we did back in SB or HW, but have nothing in return to compensate this.

Tank stance might not have been a factor to the players, but players don't do the tuning.

Contributing 1% of mainstat means you are, depending where you want to put the order of it, increasing raid damage by .96-1%. That's "tank contribution".

Heavensward specifically abused tanks being on the same damage formula but using gear not intended for them. That was an oversight, and if you think otherwise, you haven't been paying attention to their patch cycle.

Stormblood is still PDPS logs. The % of damage tanks do in comparison isn't an accurate reflection of what they "contributed", especially since so many of those logs were padded to heck and back. Tanks get -dumped- when you look at it from an "RDPS" metric, which is what we use now.

The thing is though that is just your own personal subjective opinion and it is no more right or based on anything more than your personal feelings than people that think tank dps should be higher. You and others keep up this pretense that you have some sort of objective, logical, well reasoned argument for your position. You don't, it's as much based on "feels" as the desire for more dps output from tanks is. And wanting to have a greater share of party dps is not mutually exclusive with carrying out tanking specific responsibilities, people can want both.

I won't pretend it's not opinion.

I will say it's a more logical and well reasoned argument than "Look at these two graphs -and don't actually attempt to interpret the data-."

[Shurrikhan]

Which. Has. Nothing. To. Do. With. How. Much. Damage. Other. Roles. Do.
Let me explain like I would for a 5 year old : 99th percentile = Good Tank ! 10th percentile = Bad Tank !

And, as soon as a tank doesn't enforce two tanks: 90th percentile tank = More than one tank is inherently too great a loss to afford, even if the DRG we're replacing it with is at the 40th percentile.

This thread is getting all sorts of twisted up. On one side, we've got arbitrary conflation of rDPS, aDPS, and pDPS to suit arguments, and on the other we've got argument by principle which at any extreme becomes ridiculous or otherwise ignores that a job "feeling" good, however subjective that may be, is important.

The relative decrease in tank contribution is not as great as many here are saying or nearly so great as many are implying, but relative value does matter. A job's relative value in its role determines whether you can, cannot, or must pick it. A job's relative value overall and its skillgap (yes, it takes both), however, determines whether your efforts feel rewarded.

That "feel" is of course going to be "feelcraft" (in the same way that pursuing balance is "nerdy elitist numbersplaining", I suppose?) but so too is every single preference one may have in terms of a job's gameplay, and that doesn't stop those differences from "feeling" awfully important to most players. If one can get pissed at only doing the rDPS of a 60th percentile BLM on your 95th percentile DNC, one would have every right to be pissed about low tank contribution -- which, so long as damage is the only way to differentiate a good tank from a bad tank, will take the form of damage.