crafting is gone

[Barraind]

raiding isn't all about personal skill, it's about group skill.

It does, however, require personal skill, time commitment, and dedication to self-improvement to get to a point where you can contribute to that group skill.

You arent going to take a competent group of 7 who cannot clear the content, toss in someone who has no or low personal skill, and expect to clear. Your results will likely be WORSE until that person dedicates the time to improving their personal skill.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

How would people like it if a brand new player reaches level 80 combat and within a matter of a few hours can raid just as well as the best experienced raiders? It would make raiding feel like it is not an accomplishment whatsoever. So why is it alright to make crafting that easy? They take pride in raiding, we want to be able to take pride in crafting again, like we used to.

If somebody can reach max level and be good at raiding in that short amount of time...my hats off to them. That just means they are WAY better at the game then me.
But like Callinon said, raiding is a Group Effort, not the effort of One.
My accomplishments wont change, regardless how how long or how quick they are done, a W is a W. Raiding and Crafting can both be made easy.

[Fluffernuff]

How would people like it if a brand new player reaches level 80 combat and within a matter of a few hours can raid just as well as the best experienced raiders? It would make raiding feel like it is not an accomplishment whatsoever. So why is it alright to make crafting that easy? They take pride in raiding, we want to be able to take pride in crafting again, like we used to.

crafting =/= raiding.

How would people like if they needed to have every single job to level 80 before they going even queue for savage?
And in order to even clear, you needed prior knowledge?
and the only way to get that knowledge was by the grace of the "experienced world first players".
IF they were feeling generous.
And wanted to help the community.


crafting isnt, wasnt, and has never been "hard". It's cryptic. and convoluted. You either understand it or you dont. the static nature of crafting is an absolute. I dont understand why people dont understand this fact. it's almost as if you have set %s and abilities do a fix amount based on specific stats.

[CookiesNCreams]

False equivalence. A highly skilled player can do exactly what you describe because they're highly skilled. But raiding isn't all about personal skill, it's about group skill.

Basically, you get to make that comparison the moment crafting requires 8 people to be perfectly in sync over a 15 minute crafting session.

That would be wonderful if end game crafting was just like you say... requires a group to work together and perform well on the same level as raiding. I doubt it will ever be made so exclusive though, but SE could make it comparable to raiding if they wanted to. Of course raiding and crafting are not currently directly comparable, but the concept of a game being challenging is universal to all games.

Poor raiders will not complete end game raids successfully. Poor crafters similarly should not complete end game crafts successfully. Practice and understand end game raids and once you have improved enough maybe you can clear them. Practice and understand end game crafting and once you have improved enough maybe you can HQ the crafts.

Right now end game raiding is like Dark Souls and end game crafting is like Angry Birds. We’re just asking for end game crafting to be like God of War in terms of difficulty, rather than a children’s game where you are guaranteed to win.

[CookiesNCreams]

crafting =/= raiding.

How would people like if they needed to have every single job to level 80 before they going even queue for savage?
And in order to even clear, you needed prior knowledge?
and the only way to get that knowledge was by the grace of the "experienced world first players".
IF they were feeling generous.
And wanted to help the community.

crafting isnt, wasnt, and has never been "hard". It's cryptic. and convoluted. You either understand it or you dont. the static nature of crafting is an absolute. I dont understand why people dont understand this fact. it's almost as if you have set %s and abilities do a fix amount based on specific stats.

But it doesn't take long to level crafting. A month ago I started 2 new accounts (accounts, not alts) and it took me 20 days to get them from 0 to all 80 crafts. And on top of that, you do not need to have all crafts at 80 to do end game crafts. BSM to lv 15 is needed (half an hour), all other cross class abilities help but are not necessary. I have 6 omnicrafting accounts, and if I wanted another lv 80 ALC crafting account it could literally be done within 24 hours. Leveling combat jobs takes longer. You can do end game crafts with a single crafting class at 80 just like you can do end game raids with a single combat class at 80.

[Fluffernuff]

But it doesn't take long to level crafting. A month ago I started 2 new accounts (accounts, not alts) and it took me 20 days to get them from 0 to all 80 crafts. And on top of that, you do not need to have all crafts at 80 to do end game crafts. BSM to lv 15 is needed (half an hour), all other cross class abilities help but are not necessary. I have 6 omnicrafting accounts, and if I wanted another lv 80 ALC crafting account it could literally be done within 24 hours. Leveling combat jobs takes longer. You can do end game crafts with a single crafting class at 80 just like you can do end game raids with a single combat class at 80.

then is the topic "endgame crafting"? or simply the ability to craft any singular item at all? flipping back and forth just makes this feels like moving goalposts. I dont really much care for playing semantics. if we want to consider singular 80s and what limited crafts they can do as "endgame" enough, that DOES shift the discussion quite a bit. would be nice to have that solidified rather than being used as some off-hand defense.
I personally feel that if you only have 1/8th of your potential "end" met, then you're not at the "endgame" yet. unlike battle jobs, crafting is NOT isolated between the classes. a level 80 ALC isnt going to be making a needle. a level 15 BSM might be enough for cross class, but you arent making the Pan to for CUL. and you arent going to have the stats to make whatever the level cap CP/Control food is. i simply dont consider that "endgame" myself.

As an aside, it really doesnt take that long to get to battle job to level 80 either. 24 hours is a far more than generous timeframe to get to 80 on a battle class. 20 days would get you pretty close to if not at omni-80 in battle if you really sat down and did it. there's.... not much different side from the sheer number of battle classes. the actual speed of leveling seems like a very odd hill to move the discussion to, honestly. nor is the leveling process indicative of what the "endgame" even is. for either crafting OR battle.

however, i will concede that IF you have levekits at the ready, you will get a singular crafting class to 80 before a battle class, though. that would take an afternoon. and then another 2 weeks to be able to do it again. but thats a discussion about leves more than it is about crafting in specific.


but again, my post was to highlight just how.... silly it is to compare.

the follow up is.... that crafting is still extremely static. There is little beyond a rework of the system and pruning of abilities that can make something so predetermined "hard". The system is simply "easy" by default. perhaps abilities like delicate synth are alot more obvious now, but they system hasnt changed. you cannot convince me that things were harder in the good ol' days of HW. that using flawless synthesis 18 times was "hard". if reworking it is so doom and gloom, then... frankly, you must accept that you want things to continue to be easy.

the reason things are so "easy baby game" is because of what crafting is. you have a %, you get it as close to 100% as you can, it succeeds, you get a specific unchanging number. it's calculated. unchanging. thats why basic research yields the same results. thats why when 1 person that understands crafting can post a specific string of abilities in a macro, it will work for everyone else. crafting is binary; its either 0 or 1. met or failed. the only real factor that changes this at all is a "excellent" condition. but im not sure any of us really care about or want to claim a very low % RNG occurrence has any significant bearing on difficulty

[SamSmoot]

Interested to see how prudent touch and delicate synthesis got nerfed, those two moves absolutely ruined endgame crafting. Because they did mention it was too easy to HQ recipes in the digest. I’m actually excited.

Hmm, I don't think I've ever used Prudent Touch. Just took a closer look. It costs a bit more Waste Not, and only gives you 100% efficiency. I guess the advantage is that with Waste Not, you lose steps when doing actions that don't increase quality, so it's actually less efficient. Perhaps the Waste Not's need to be dropped, and just keep Prudent Touch.

[Deceptus]

If someone levels their crafts to 80 right now, they can buy a full set of crafting gear for less than 1,000,000 gil. They can spend a few hours gathering then craft collectables for tier 8 materia in guaranteed slots and a handful of tier 4 overmelds, that is all you need now. Then copy a rotation from online. In a matter of like 5 hours, a new crafter at level 80 can be on par with the best crafters. The level 80 two star crafts are so easy that a crafting noob can do it just as easily as a veteran crafter. It completely trivializes crafting.

How would people like it if a brand new player reaches level 80 combat and within a matter of a few hours can raid just as well as the best experienced raiders? It would make raiding feel like it is not an accomplishment whatsoever. So why is it alright to make crafting that easy? They take pride in raiding, we want to be able to take pride in crafting again, like we used to.

What's the difference between your scenario and someone buying 450 HQ crafted set once they hit 80? Just because you're geared for content doesn't mean you're good at it or ready for it.

Having the crafted gear doesn't mean you know jack about crafting.

But it doesn't take long to level crafting. A month ago I started 2 new accounts (accounts, not alts) and it took me 20 days to get them from 0 to all 80 crafts. And on top of that, you do not need to have all crafts at 80 to do end game crafts. BSM to lv 15 is needed (half an hour), all other cross class abilities help but are not necessary. I have 6 omnicrafting accounts, and if I wanted another lv 80 ALC crafting account it could literally be done within 24 hours. Leveling combat jobs takes longer. You can do end game crafts with a single crafting class at 80 just like you can do end game raids with a single combat class at 80.

Honest question, did you get the items for the crafts yourself or did you buy it all with one of your other accounts with more money?

Hmm, I don't think I've ever used Prudent Touch. Just took a closer look. It costs a bit more Waste Not, and only gives you 100% efficiency. I guess the advantage is that with Waste Not, you lose steps when doing actions that don't increase quality, so it's actually less efficient. Perhaps the Waste Not's need to be dropped, and just keep Prudent Touch.

That was me. Leveled everything to 80 using a method that used Precise Touch on good procs. Never touched prudent at all. Can easily craft 80 mats from NQ to HQ. Only 456 CP without NQ Blood Boublionaise (sp)

[CookiesNCreams]

If you do everything correctly raiding, you succeed. Always? No. If you are good at it... then it might be “always”.

If you do everything correctly crafting, you succeed. Always? Yes. Like you say, this is because crafting is a completely fixed system, ever since RNG was removed from crafting. If you simply pause a craft before Byregot’s you avoid “poor” which is the only possible (rare) RNG.

That is the problem. Easy means you always succeed. People argue that RNG does not equal difficulty, but at least it makes crafting somewhat more difficult, you are no longer guaranteed to succeed. Is difficulty not defined by how hard it is to complete something successfully? If you did a perfect crafting rotation, and at the end you only have 10% chance of HQ... would you still say it is easy? That was crafting at lv 50 getting master books. Now, crafting with no RNG is like... a boss that spams a single attack.

[DumdogsWorld]

Even ESO (a game I loathe) has a WAY better crafting system. And your materials pull right from your bank.

The crafting in ESO is horrible. It's way too easy to level, and way too easy to make stuff. It's essentially worthless.