Anyone else concerned by the extremely low skill ceiling?

[HyoMinPark]

The fact that they were over-tuned or bugged isn't really of consequence for what I was trying to point out. The time investment to clear in this game is fairly minimal while also not discounting other outside factors (IE: Midas was the tier before CD resets upon wipe. It cannot be overstated just how much that cut down on progression time). To say this tier is this much easier because it was killed faster, since you took the liberty of posting Eden's clear time, or because the jobs became less convoluted seems insincere as all previous tiers of Creator were bloated by CD timers waiting to be ticked off.

Then, perhaps be a bit more clear on what you were trying to say rather than being vague? How am I supposed to correctly infer your statement when you basically say nothing?

While cooldown reset was a god-send and did cut back on clear time, I highly doubt that shaved off a week plus worth’s of progression time (if we were to just compare Midas and Creator). It may be big, but I don’t think it was that big. To insinuate such is being insincere, as you are accusing me of being by simply stating that Savage has gotten easier.

Conversely, I don’t consider my argument insincere, since it’s fairly well known that the difficulty of Savage has decreased since Creator’s release: I believe the developers even said that Creator would be easier than Midas in terms of difficulty when discussing the tier. Additionally, they said that Deltascape would be the same difficulty as Creator—but it was far easier (World First for O1S was cleared in the first pull; I don’t think Refurbisher had that kind of honor). Sigmascape was stated to be the same difficulty as Deltascape, and it was cleared in a similar time. Only Alphascape showed any real increase in difficulty, but I still found it fairly easy. I think, at most, it was around Creator difficulty.

As for Eden’s Gate, the developers admitted that, while the second floor has a higher required DPS check compared to previous second floors (I believe the jump between E1S and E2S DPS check is 10,000 rDPS there about?), the HP of bosses were reduced 15% instead of the standard 10%. So they were made to have significantly less HP. Mechanically, I found the third floor lacking compared to previous third-tier floors (Hali, Guardian, Omega); and I am not entirely alone in this opinion. Leviathan has two major mechanics (Tsunami 1 and Tsunami 2), but they aren’t anything spectacularly difficult.

I also don’t think that jobs being “convoluted” had much of an impact. They’ve been simplified with Shadowbringers, sure. But I don’t think that the changes in playstyle or complexity affected the clear time of Eden as significantly as you seem to want to imply.

Also, a correction to your all of 4.0 raids took 18 hours: I have to point out that O12S did take 41 hours to clear while A12S took 50 hours. If the clear time in savage, or that it seems easier by a select bunch of individuals that are, indeed, a niche, is simply unacceptable, it begs me to question why ultimates were created if the difficulty change to savage is still being pushed. It comes off as a blatant case of trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Is there something wrong with some raiders asking that Savage content be a bit more difficult simply because Ultimate exists? Or is it just something that you personally dislike? Because I’m getting the impression of the latter being the case here, if I’m to be quite honest with you.

Personally, I don’t see a problem in asking for Savage to feel, I don’t know, more “savage”? I’d like for floors to take me a bit more time as opposed to a lockout to clear a fight (E1S actually took my static an hour to clear on Day 1—I wish it had actually taken longer). But this is my opinion.

As far as PotD being sold, to say it's taken this long, if that is a new offer, is quite surprising as ultimates have been on sale for quite some time if party finder is any indication. Again, it just strikes me as you're being really insincere with certain things to simply push a narrative.

I don’t know how long selling solo PotD 200/HoH 100 runs has been a thing; it’s not something I really keep up with. But I do think it’s disingenuous to really compare Deep Dungeon content to Savage/Ultimate content when it comes to clear time.

PotD and HoH can revolve very heavily around luck and RNG when it comes to the higher floors, and you only really have yourself to rely on. By nature, they’re fairly unpredictable. Savage and Ultimate, on the other hand, don’t involve any luck and are a collaborative, scripted effort. I don’t think either are particularly harder or easier compared to one another—I just think they are two separate beasts that shouldn’t be compared as if they are the same. That’s a disingenuous assessment, in my opinion.

That said, my premise was about Savage and its current state; and how I feel as if it is a shadow of what it used to be. Not PotD or HoH. I was not the one who attempted to compare them to another piece of content that’s not remotely similar in nature or execution.

My point here was what is in an accomplishment when things are cleared quickly by the overachievers? The difficulty has been first figuring out the fights, not actually doing them since you can pre-plan everything before stepping into an encounter if you know what's coming up because someone else has actually done the hard work (and yes, I understand there is still a difference between knowing and execution). Also, to point out, I've never seen a group of random people die 13 times and still clear Innocence or Titania. I could certainly see that with a bunch of high-end raiders that do things together and still learning the fight, or even a couple of high-end players with some randoms, still clearing. I think, when comparing the entirety of the game and problems going on at large, people tend toward something out of proportion to what is more likely to occur to exacerbate their point.

EDIT: If people are really wanting a challenge, FFLogs Challenge is a thing.

My opinions have always been voiced from someone who is fairly midcore when it comes to raiding (Maybe semi-hardcore? Since I like optimizing my jobs, but even that’s a stretch, I think...). I am not a world-first caliber raider; but, I still find that the tiers feel progressively easier, and I feel as if I don’t get as much accomplishment out of clearing some of the floors simply because they feel too easy. I’m sure the rebuttal to this will be “Well, maybe they feel easier because of your own growing skill”, but I raided this tier on a job that I hadn’t been playing for 3 years (and am still trying to optimize), and I still found it more simple than previous tiers (which, as stated by the developers, it was made easier).

If you would like to lump me in with “overachievers”, be my guest: I would just simply like to see tiers last longer for the world-firsters—because that means they will also last longer for those of us who are not as skilled (including myself).

Clearing 3 out of 4 of the fights this tier Week 1 and the fourth fight Week 2 was exhilarating and exciting for me; but I would not be opposed to it simply taking me longer to clear (with the added time needed being a direct result of the fights simply being harder—not Ultimate-caliber hard, but harder than they currently are). If I were to clear them early, I think that if they felt harder to me, clearing them early would feel like an even greater accomplishment.

I am speaking more so about myself personally when it comes to accomplishment—I removed the statement you initially quoted simply because it was poor wording on my part, and I figured it would likely start a debate much like this one. I felt it better to just take it out, but I clearly didn’t edit fast enough. Again, if you would like to label me an overachiever, then be my guest.


I don’t really have to argue much about tiers becoming easier when the developers come out and directly say that they made them easier. Posting clear times or not, I feel that this is undebatable and a fairly straight-forward assessment.

3.0 Bard was the best iteration of Bard, you know it to be true.

While I am one of two people alive that actually liked bowmage, HW BRD was a busted mess towards the end of the expansion. Balance-wise, it (and MCH) were awful (they could out-damage MNK and BLM). 4.x BRD could have used some adjustments to prevent its powercreep, but I think it was the best iteration of the job, personally.


I think HW DRK was good. Better than 4.x or 5.0 DRK. And I kind of liked HW WAR, even though I didn’t play it at a high level: building up Wrath stacks for Fell Cleave was fun.