Samurai - Kaiten Issue

[DRKoftheAzure]

TL;DR is Hissatsu: Kaiten recast timer at 1 second is for Meikyo Shisui Burst if you have enough Kenki to get 4 Hissatsu: Kaitens in a row with True North up/active(Ikishoten can make this easier to achieve) really high burst when Senei is on cooldown.

[Ryaz]

TL;DR is Hissatsu: Kaiten recast timer at 1 second is for Meikyo Shisui Burst if you have enough Kenki to get 4 Hissatsu: Kaitens in a row with True North up/active(Ikishoten can make this easier to achieve) really high burst when Senei is on cooldown.

But isn't it better to spend the Kenki on Shinten instead of a combo finisher?

[Quor]

But isn't it better to spend the Kenki on Shinten instead of a combo finisher?

Shinten is 320 potency for 25 Kenki, which when divided out gives us 12.8 potency per Kenki, or 64 per 5. This means Kaiten has to give a minimum of 256 (64x4) potency in order to equal Shinten. At 480 potency on Gekko/Kasha Kaiten grants 240 additional potency, so you're still better off saving that Kenki for Shinten instead of using it on a Kaiten there.

In other words, you're correct.

[DRKoftheAzure]

But isn't it better to spend the Kenki on Shinten instead of a combo finisher?

Meikyo Shisui lets excute 3 weaponskill combos without meeting prerequisites, which mean you get combo potencies AND combo bonuses.

Shinten is 320 potency for 25 Kenki, which when divided out gives us 12.8 potency per Kenki, or 64 per 5. This means Kaiten has to give a minimum of 256 (64x4) potency in order to equal Shinten. At 480 potency on Gekko/Kasha Kaiten grants 240 additional potency, so you're still better off saving that Kenki for Shinten instead of using it on a Kaiten there.

In other words, you're correct.

If Meikyo Shisui, Hissatsu: Senei, and Tsubame-gaeshi are all on cooldown then yes.


If only Hissatsu: Senei and Tsubame-gaeshi are on cooldown and Meikyo is about to come up, and you just did Kaiten buffed Midare Setsugekka, and you also need to factor in how much Kenki you should have to for max Meikyo Shisui damage(45 or more Kenki) since Yukikaze, Kasha, and Gekko generate up to 35 Kenki(yes Yukikaze needs to be have the Kaiten buff as well but this is only for Meikyo Shisui burst). However, this only works for me and sometimes you need to hit True North for max Kenki generation during this as well so this is more general and is up to other players if they want to take the hit to their Kenki gauge sooner rather than later, and if they can get a Kaiten buffed Higanbana before their Shifu and Jinpu buffs fall off after, so speed demons will want as much skillspeed for that.


But we do know that SAMs Shoha is getting reworked so the Hissatsu: Kaiten change might not be around for long much longer...

[Kabooa]

Meikyo Shisui lets excute 3 weaponskill combos without meeting prerequisites, which mean you get combo potencies AND combo bonuses.

If Meikyo Shisui, Hissatsu: Senei, and Tsubame-gaeshi are all on cooldown then yes..

Your Kenki order is Kaiten >= Senei > Seigan(lol) > Shinten. There is no point where using Kaiten on combo finishers is a gain over just using Shinten.

[DRKoftheAzure]

Your Kenki order is Kaiten >= Senei > Seigan(lol) > Shinten. There is no point where using Kaiten on combo finishers is a gain over just using Shinten.

I don't use Seigan because it's not worth the damage from it and Merciful Eyes is better because it is a self heal but you know server ticks are...


But Shinten I use when not in Meikyo Shisui burst and when Senei is not up, but again; the 1 second recast Kaiten might not be around for 5.1...

[Endariel]

I don't use Seigan because it's not worth the damage from it and Merciful Eyes is better because it is a self heal but you know server ticks are...


But Shinten I use when not in Meikyo Shisui burst and when Senei is not up, but again; the 1 second recast Kaiten might not be around for 5.1...

Seigan is actually a DPS gain with 14.666 potency per kenki Vs 12.8 from shinten

[Shurrikhan]

I don't use Seigan because it's not worth the damage from it and Merciful Eyes is better because it is a self heal but you know server ticks are...

But Shinten I use when not in Meikyo Shisui burst and when Senei is not up, but again; the 1 second recast Kaiten might not be around for 5.1...

So you're costing yourself 28 potency up to every 15 seconds, a little over 100 ppm, so you can heal yourself for miniscule amounts that would have been AoE healed anyways? When our enmity generation was absurd, Merciful Eyes was indeed the greater rDPS without a NIN, but now... I have to wonder why you'd take Eyes over Seigan if, for instance, you were to flush one completely off your bar.

There's also no reason not to use Shinten in Meikyo Shisui burst. If you're running the 2s build, for instance, those 3 GCDs should be among the 5 inside of Trick Attack, but so should as much oGCD damage as possible. Every other minute, that's going to mean maximum Shinten usage (and a Seigan, if the opportunity arises, though it's better used for getting you precisely to 85/90/95 before that burst). ..If you honestly mean you're using Kaiten on the MKSS finishers... don't. That's costing you at least 16 potency for Gekko/Kasha and more for Yukikaze, all to have a faintly more unwieldy animation.

All that really is less of a "bloat" thing and more of a "refusal to use".

[DRKoftheAzure]

Seigan is actually a DPS gain with 14.666 potency per kenki Vs 12.8 from shinten

I don't even have Seigan on my hotbar mostly because of how situational it is and if it's too situational for me to use properly then I won't really use it, especially since Seigan has prerequisite on top of the gauge cost, which is enough to make me ignore Seigan because if I were to use it I would more than likely die from a mechanic due to server ticks.


In fact certain skills being situational which is based on very specific pieces of content that nobody is going to be playing in generally because of factors that nearly make it impossible to get even a clear(mostly lack of an actual voice chat system in-game to help better explain mechanics of a fight or give instructions/directions of what to do for a given fight), which is why people are still asking for an easier way to know if something is Physical Damage, Magical Damage, or Current Max HP Damage, and why DRKs are still asking for Living Dead to be re-worked even though I believe Hallowed Ground and Sentinel should be tank role actions, why ASTs hate the new card system for one of their skills, and also why certain jobs have no real use for certain substats.

[Eliadil]

I don't even have Seigan on my hotbar mostly because of how situational it is and if it's too situational for me to use properly then I won't really use it, especially since Seigan has prerequisite on top of the gauge cost, which is enough to make me ignore Seigan because if I were to use it I would more than likely die from a mechanic due to server ticks.

This is why peoples are asking for some de-bloating of Sam's toolkit. Merciful Eyes should be fused with third eye, changing to it whenever you get a proc. The same should be done for Shinten and Seigan tbh, with Seigan replacing Shinten every time you hit a Third Eye proc... Or simple Guren/Senei, which are the same skill but with a different animation. Or just Shoha and Meditate... Or Hagakure and Ikis-... Well, we'd like that to happen.