Samurai - Kaiten Issue

[SpeckledBurd]

SAM is a 40+ Action-Per-Minute class with half of those actions being oGCDs. You are simply wrong.

Depends on how you look at it. In terms of Raw Number of actions it doesn't really have a whole lot, especially compared to Dragoon/Ninja which have tons of oGCD actions. The thing that inflates Samurai's oGCD numbers is Shinten which while it is an oGCD is ultimately just a skill you use to prevent capping on gauge. Unlike Dragoon's Jumps or anything Ninja's Mudra's/everything else, there's rarely an opportunity cost to sitting on a Shinten unless you're about to cap on Kenki because by design it can't drift.

Because Samurai has a lot of freedom in how it uses it's oGCDs I failed to consider how Kaiten only really interacted with a single other button in all but the most Niche of circumstances.

And what's the next step, then? If Kaiten is bloat because it's used only at a specific time, then what about Shinten, which is used only as a last resort and thus "complicated" only by however many prior layers of greater efficiency come before it (Senei > Kaiten > Seigan)? Heck, what about Senei/Guren, since it's already simply used once every 2 minutes and spends the rest of the time as bar bloat and is only complicated by Kaiten and Ikishoten... or, literally just Ikishoten, which would already be paired to its use and therefore would only remove the 50-gauge complication outright? Where do we drawn the line here? Every block you pull from the fundamentals of Samurai's gauge system will have a toppling effect on its more advanced components. Kaiten, at least, requires foresight where Shinten requires none. Due to Ikishoten, Guren (and ofc Senei) now require even less than they used to -- arguably no more, now, than Kaiten.

If anything, shouldn't we be considering how we can make Kaiten have other situations for its usefulness rather than gutting what little complexity remains to the job? For instance, what if Ikishoten allowed for compounding (non-Iajutsu) weaponskill potency rather than granting a Guren/Senei of gauge? Or what if you tossed in an Art of Sword/Swell/Storm mechanic that similarly gave other circumstances by which Kaiten would be more efficient on a non-Iajutsu weaponskill than Shinten -- something situational that you could work towards and exploit? And consider -- Kaiten will always be used with Iajutsu, true, but not every Iajutsu, especially given a mistake or an incoming, unfortunately-timed jump, will be used with a Kaiten.

:: There are enough situations in which I might prefer to conserve gauge over buffing an Iajutsu that I'd rather Kaiten remain manual in its interaction with Iajutsu. And I certainly don't want to see Samurai's complexity gutted even further.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

[Kabooa]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

Yeah.

Never hit that slope in this game.

*looks at Tanks*

[Shurrikhan]

Depends on how you look at it. In terms of Raw Number of actions it doesn't really have a whole lot, especially compared to Dragoon/Ninja which have tons of oGCD actions. The thing that inflates Samurai's oGCD numbers is Shinten which while it is an oGCD is ultimately just a skill you use to prevent capping on gauge. Unlike Dragoon's Jumps or anything Ninja's Mudra's/everything else, there's rarely an opportunity cost to sitting on a Shinten unless you're about to cap on Kenki because by design it can't drift.

Because Samurai has a lot of freedom in how it uses it's oGCDs I failed to consider how Kaiten only really interacted with a single other button in all but the most Niche of circumstances.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

Anyone who has played Heavensward Monk at a high level should know that concern is quite warranted.

Or... you know... ever played a tank...

[Shurrikhan]

I don't understand how you can double-use Kaiten when this game gives you a ton of buffer for oGCDs. There is never a reason to mash it, making the entire initial premise of the thread irrelevant. That said, of the proposed solutions, the only one that works without further damaging the job is simply the "goes on CD after the buff is consumed" idea someone had.

That wouldn't work either, though. It'd offer just as much chance to override the existing Kaiten buff while also giving you an overly long CD to prevent it from being used within a GCD of the last (e.g. Midare, combo-finisher, Higanbana).

You could easily fix the issue by making...

• Kaiten's CD refresh when the buff is consumed, or
• Making Kaiten itself unavailable when and only when the buff is already up (even more intuitive).

[Eliadil]

Tbh, I'd be really happy if instead of merging Kaiten with Iaijutsu, they'd prevent players from applying Kaiten again if the buff is already active. Kaiten isn't a "bloating" skill in your hotbar. Senei/Guren is one tho. Merciful Eyes/Third Eye is one too. While I understand the fact that without Senei, Samuraï wouldn't have gained any really cool new animation from 70 to 80, the extra space it takes does hinder your hotbar, even more while playing on controller. The same can be said about Merciful Eye, which has lost its enmity reduction buff, making it a really, really niche skill now, that you often wouldn't take over Seigan.

Thing with Samuraï is that we do have a lot of really niche skills that will be used once or twice during a fight (or even not at all, in the case of Guren). Meditate along with the infamous Shoha, the Yaten/Enpi/Gyoten combo (again, make Enpi not break combo, that would make such a huge difference), Merciful Eyes heals barely enough to be qualified as a decent self heal after getting hit with Third Eye. I dunno about you, but I heal more with a single tick of Bloodbath/Combo finisher than with Merciful Eye, Kaeshi Higanbana... And now we even got a bad Hagakure in the insane list of skills that are almost never used.

Niche skills are cool, don't get me wrong. They allow us to optimize and adapt to a lot of situations (Again, flexibility is key when playing a Sam, which is why Hagakure was really good in Stormblood) but there are times when it's just... Bad to have that much "useless" skills that will barely get used in one or two fight (talking about Kaeshi Higanbana here as an example).

Imo there needs to be some deeper thought behind 5.X Samurai because right now... It doesn't feel like we improved since Stormblood. Yes, the goal was to make it even better at doing what it already does ("nailed it", said the dev who removed Hagakure at the time) but I still wonder why half of my hotbar is just full of skills that most of the time I won't use more than once in a fight. Merge some skills with others, at least some skills that do proc. Seigan into Shinten. Merciful Eye into Third Eye. Find some reason to use Kaeshi Higanbana. Find a way to fuse Guren and Senei, maybe find a way to keep both animations if peoples really want it... But atm, for a job that requires a lot of fight optimization, the job itself lacks a lot of it.

[Jorthak]

I for one would be all for Kaiten to be grayed out on the hot bar if the Buff was currently active on the character too. I believe its the only ability in game with a 1 second recast time with a low resource cost and not a direct damaging attack if i am not mistaken. As long as it doesn't put a player in a 1 second CD from accidentally pressing it and can't be pressed again while its active, it would be tuned correctly.

[Gemina]

My issue with Kaiten isn't even the potential multiple misuses. Though I won't deny that a misused Kaiten basically costs you two gcds, and that stings. As was pointed out earlier, Kaiten will ALWAYS be paired with iaijutsu. This makes iaijutsu rely on multiple resources, and few things in this game piss me off more than skills that require multiple resources to use. Guren and Senei suffer the same as well. As does Third Eye.

Many things can be done to trim SAMs hedges that is for sure.

[Eliadil]

Tbh, the discussion about Kaiten shouldn't be that much of a concern. Indeed, making it unavailable while the buff is still active would be neat, but Kaiten is by far one of the smallest issue we have with the current Samuraï. If you wanna talk about useless skills, just look at the famous Kaeshi Higanbana. Or even the whole Tsubame thing that made our rotation really akward. (Either make it an oGCD or make it a weaponskill, I don't understand why some class like MCH or Gunbreaker have so much weaponskill with a high cooldown while samuraï on the other side is stuck with an ability that triggers a GCD, especially one that must be used right after a Iaijutsu)

Tbh, I'd say that if we're talking about kenki, we might need to look at Shinten or Ikishôten and not Kaiten...

I'm one of those that would love to see the old Hagakure back, but I doubt we'll ever see that happen. Ikishôten isn't a bad ability tbh, but unlike old Hagakure, it doesn't synergize with Tsubame, like at all... And Shinten spamming wasn't that bad... At least in terms of dps gain. (Which I believe with the 5.0 Midare buff Shinten spamming wouldn't be worth it anyway, but maybe I'm wrong, I'm bad with numbers)

Anyway, all of that was to say that Kaiten, while needing some attention, isn't the most urgent thing to look out for Samuraï's kit. Preventing the use of Kaiten if the buff is already active would solve the issue of pressing it twice. Dragoons already have that with Blood of the Dragon, when they enter the Life state. So why not Sam ? Or will it make the class too strong ? Like how they nerfed Senei after the media tour ?