Samurai - Kaiten Issue

[Jorthak]

Hello everyone,

Just curious on what people feel about this Kaiten change? The problem i am coming across is that the change to the recast going down to 1 second, doesn't help anyone but hinder people, in the case of accidental button presses.

I have seen other posts before 5.08 about this and seen multiple people say bring it down to 1 second, but make it so you can't press it again if the Kaiten buff is up. But obviously that change didn't happen.

Instead a unmentioned nerf with Tsubame-gaeshi happened as well, which now is delayed by the recast time of weapon skills to activate it, on top of not being able to to use weapon skills during its recast timer after you use it... which means if you are literally standing there for 4 to 5 seconds doing nothing if you have no kenki.

Which comes back to the accidental casting of extra Kaitens.....

The flow... is really bad when getting to all iaijutsus now because of these nerfs, they don't feel rewarding at all because the flow just hurts... Honestly i would rather go back to 5.0 with Tsubame-gaeshi's cast time because the flow felt better and Kaiten fit in better with a 5 second Recast timer.


My suggestions would be:

- (this must happen) Remove the weapon skill timer from Tsubame-gaeshi completely so that you can Iaijutsu > Tsubame-gaeshi > Hakaze within a span of 2.5 seconds max based on the OGC to make the flow feel good.

A. Fix Kaiten by reverting it back to its 5 second recast timer.
B. Fix Kaiten by adding in a no recast if the buff is active.
C. Remove Kaiten from the game entirely. Increase Iaijutsu damage by 50%, make Iaijutsu cost 20 kenki to use. (Now hear me out on this.)

The reasoning for C is.. while Kaiten can be used for all "Weapon Skills" (not Tsubame-gaeshi as it is an ability not a weapon skill.) the problem is... you won't... there isn't enough gain in all the weapon skills to justify its cost EXCEPT for Iaijutsu... so basically the ability is tied directly to Iaijutsu, there is no reason or in another sense, no other purpose for this ability... it is basically a empty button press if you are not using it with Iaijutsu. So why not just combine Kaiten with Iaijutsu to make the flow better?

What do others think about this? My play style took a huge hit cause of the Kaiten and Tsubame-gaeshi nerfs and i really just wanted to throw this post out there to see what others have been experiencing.

Thank you for your time.

[moxzie]

I'm not really bothered by the change itself but I do agree that it's a pointless skill. The only reasons it exists are to add an extra key press and give opportunities for mistakes.

Using it for anything but Iaijutsu is a mistake. Using Iaijutsu without it is a mistake. Obviously, pressing it twice is a mistake.

It gives a tiny bit of pointless complexity, and I guess that's the idea, but it doesn't really feel good or flow well. I'd be happy to see your "C" suggestion come about and just do away with it entirely.

[Marc-Vigar]

I agree with merging Iaijutsu and Kaiten, SAM has already too many buttons.


This is how my hotbar feels when I play SAM:

[Quor]

I would rather they remove Shoha then Kaiten, and make Guren deal Senei-level damage on 1 target and it's normal damage if it hit's 2+, but I have no idea if they could code that to work. Having said that, yes, SAM has the most number of skills to press right now I think. Something like 38 once you count role actions? But it's certainly at the point where if you want to use a controller with the cross hotbar then you're going to have to sacrifice a skill or two.

[Burningskull]

If they merge Kaiten and Iaijutsu then they need to merge DRG's Life Surge and Full Thrust. As well as Reassemble and Drill / Clean Shot

[moxzie]

If they merge Kaiten and Iaijutsu then they need to merge DRG's Life Surge and Full Thrust. As well as Reassemble and Drill / Clean Shot

In the case of Drill/Air Anchor, you don't 100% of the time use them with Reassemble. The cooldowns don't line up, so you use Drill by itself until Reassemble is up and then you get your boosted attack. If you don't manage your timing, you'll be in a situation where you can decide to wait a few seconds for Reassemble to come off cooldown or fire without it.

It's the same with Life Surge/Full Thrust. You'll use Full Thrust without Life Surge until it comes up, then get your enhanced attack when it does.

I guess you could make the argument that managing kenki for Kaiten is similar, but you'll pretty much always have the 20 kenki to spend on it, or if not you'll do pretty much any attack, get the 20 kenki, then use it. Since the suggestion was to make Iaijutsu just cost the 20 itself, it would come to the same thing without the pointless key press.

You will always, 100% of the time, cast Kaiten with Iaijutsu. You'll cast Drill/Full Thrust without Reassemble/Life Surge more often than you will with the buffs.

[Ryaz]

As someone who occasionally fat finger Kaiten on the wrong WS, I welcome the change. Let's me make the mistake of using it on a Gekko or something and still use it again for my Iai without having to wait. It's really just a QoL change for situations like that.

[Shurrikhan]

Just make Kaiten unavailable while the Kaiten buff is already present, as has been requested since 4.0...

Samurai is only really bloated by skills like Third Eye being separate from Seigan/Merciful Eyes, Shoha being separate from Meditation, and, as per most ShB jobs, needless AoE/ST ability equivalents (in our case, Guren/Senei).

There's not a single situation in this game where it's worth using Senei over Guren on even 2 targets, so why do we have two separate buttons for a non-decision? Don't get wrong -- I'd prefer that there were such a reason, but there just isn't, and aside from maybe the Zu fight in Pharos Sirius, there never has been. So why isn't Senei just a vs. sole-target or vs. first-target upgrade to Guren?

Edit: That being said, I'm pretty sure TG was a GCD previously as well. Although the delay is more noticeable without the cast-time, I see no reason to suddenly make it an oGCD. If I'm misremembering and it was already an oGCD but with a cast time, like HW-era Empyreal Arrow, then simply reducing it to a half-GCD should be sufficient.

[cactuarzzzz]

Make Iai cost 20 kenki can cause a problem in 50-60 contents

[Jorthak]

Make Iai cost 20 kenki can cause a problem in 50-60 contents

True, but can easily be fixed with a trait at 52 instead of Kaiten being introduced to the move set. (lvl 52 trait Iaijutsu is now 50% more potent, but now costs 20 kenki)