New Mentor requirements

[Shougun]

i would LOVE to see some kind of qualification that isn't passed by "literally everybody EVENTUALLY" which is all the current system is. i think we completely agree on that point: current mentor requirements are not a measure of skill or even personality, they are a measure of character age MODIFIED by skill or personality. everybody gets commended EVENTUALLY, even by accident.

Absolutely agree (that we can manage expectations)- right now the qualifications are simply "do you play this game a lot?" and we do want mentors who know a bit about the game so the concept of using these measurements isnt entirely unfounded but at a certain point does it really matter if it's 200 hours or 1000 hours? Like can we even tell the difference? I know quite a few people who are not very good at the game but play MSQ over and over and have a massive amount of hours and decent commendations because they're nice people (also not suggesting everyone who loves MSQ is bad lol).

That and I agree there could be some value in mentors who can teach the game well and are battle role models, but I also think there is value in just promoting a sign post to nice people who can answer general questions. "Where do I get new gear?" is something a general mentor could most likely answer, don't need to be able to do ultimate to answer that. It's true that general people that aren't mentors could probably do that too but the point being for a watering can is that they want to answer that question and they're given the tools to further facilitate that sort of help. Similarly crown (or "savage/extreme" mentors) being able to help with that stuff.

Which is where I was trying to go with the tiers (two?), as it would help manage expectations and allow different types and levels of helpful people the ability to do so.

i do remember hearing the idea that: "NN doesn't have to be FFXIV school, sometimes it's just the welcome wagon" and i don't hate that sentiment. (these people would be like your watering cans) but i dunno how effective splitting the mentors into tiers would work in reality. as is now i've seen a couple mentors openly talk about cheesing their mentor status one minute, complain about how hard 24 mans are the next, then still tell sprouts that rotations are for tryhards? we all already know they're not meeting the games CURRENT qualifications, doesn't shut them up now why would it THEN, you know?

I've seen quite a few people talk about cheesing the mentor status too lol or be not awesome at the game, although most mentors I see are not rude (most, not saying I've never seen a mentor where I was like "...wow.... why do you even want to be a mentor?..."). Also I think that if we get two tiers we can encourage the right expectation between mentors. Currently a lot of people would like to see mentors be rock stars, and maybe they are at a specific job, but obviously that's not really always the case. So if we get watering cans then these are your helpful people, ask them questions, they're going to queue to help your old content, etc. Crowns are your rock stars, and they wont have their crown if they're on a job they've not proven themselves on (crown isn't lost altogether, it's just not on when they're on a job/job group they've not shown strength in- when their crown is on they should be above average and they should be able to help you understand your job and savage/extreme content).

So too high expectations removed from people who just want to help out the really new people, and moved to those who literally had to prove they're half decent at "playing" the game lol.

In that I guess I'd say you might not be able to prevent bad mentors all the way but if a crown was telling you that rotations are important and a watering can was like "lol macro everything it doesn't even matter, ice black mage is just as good anyways" that the sprout had information at their disposal to figure which one is probably telling the truth. If it's really bad people can also kick the mentor whose lying (though I think reasons for kicking should be fairly specific, like a drop down list that catches pretty much all the valid reasons you could, and these kicks should be investigated by a GM with feedback and proper punishment- meaning those who can't handle the novice chat will quickly, after warnings, be permanently removed from the novice chat). A bit totalitarian but the purpose of the chat isn't your own ego or to bulldoze other players, so I think it's okay in that (though that sort of aggressive approach shouldn't go into general chat of course, imo lol).

i completely agree that there should be some kind of global chat. even if it is just to draw certain people away from the NN. too many people join to use it as a clubhouse, and while most are benign, some of them really make me think: "why don't you go have this monologue at your friends... and if you don't have any friends to have this monologue at; maybe take that as a hint?"

Yeah I was thinking that exactly, people use it as a general chat because it functions well that way. Giving players a feature that they're obviously desiring would help clean up the NN for actual NN deeds. There might be RMT issues but because a large amount of players would be in it then RMT could be quickly mass reported I suppose, and SE might be able to develop tools for that purpose.

i had read somewhere that kicking someone from novice automatically filed a GM report. i guess i dunno if that's true but honestly, people just report each other if they get kicked, so the GMs know what's happening. it feels like squeenix is pretty hands off. maybe they don't have a formal policy on what the NNs are "supposed" to be? or maybe my opinion of what it should be is totally wrong. the post and bad advice emporium could be "working as intended" cuz... the posters are still around too?

Honestly I assumed it didn't but if it did then.. cool haha. I assumed it didn't because you hear so much about abuse of power and horrible mentors controlling the NN. Perhaps its just classic internet exaggeration and people venting they got kicked for a valid reason. But I assumed there wasn't GM reports because of that. If there isn't then I think there should be, kicking out another person of the help network should be for a VERY good reason and not because of something petty.

your last bit sounds cool but it also sounds like a lot of effort on SEs part that i don't see getting done. not to mention i dunno how i feel about the prospect of adding in "special events" for being a mentor. as we've discussed we already have too many people becoming mentors for the wrong reasons. the idea of a special world fate or saucer event "for them" (even if they are open to the server, people will feel like it's "for sprouts and mentors") seems like it just becomes a fresh magnet. it would be cool but: "this is why we can't have nice things"

Agreed lol. For the later I would suggest that most if not all of the content is open to non-mentors, just that the system will try to pair new players and mentors together and inform them of things. So like Odin, if detected that opening Odin up for some new players could be helpful it might create a party finder link that pools together everyone who accepts and then divides mentors and new players out as best as it can into their own 8 man parties (or alliances if that feature is ever added) and then sends them off 5 minutes early before Odin spawns. Even more fun if you could talk to a mentor NPC for like free fireworks (they are consumed on a timer). Of course as people learn Odin spawns non-mentor/new people will come, and they should be allowed to touch the firework NPC too.

Or like for the chocobo event it triggers informing the network and starts inviting the network into that automated party system again (new and old players divided out as best as it could), but that other players in the saucer could get the benefits too while the event is going on. So non-mentors are not left out just that the mentor system is encouraging new players to get friends and try systems with veterans who want to interact with them, and also the system could be encouraging some content that is perhaps not something on their normal path at the moment (making a really nice break of the main content stream). Like a new player might have difficulty getting Odin for a long while or not even be aware of certain content in the game like super FATEs or chocobo racing, so the system is like "and queue the break from MSQ ground... now- *big fanfare music plays*".

It's still a bit of a benefit so you're right it might influence people wanting to become a mentor .... I'm unsure if that would have significant consequences or not. I do feel that it would be a lot of fun though if the game would organize events near server wide and especially if some of these events were taking in variables. It's partly why I suggested perhaps the new fellowship system might be able to use it too (which would add more value to the fellowship system as well).

i'd settle for just a GM who's job it was to read NNs for a few hours. absorb the context and remove some people's crowns as per common sense. obviously they couldn't be everywhere all the time but get a couple of them in different time zones and languages and have them just move around. i feel like a small amount of human oversight would go a long way.

If they have time I certainly think it would be fair for GMs to have a few shifts where they read NN chats. Or like to check and ensure shadowbans of RMT in the general chat if they added that. In this way you might feel they're exceptionally fast responding to reports, sometimes catching things live. Not sure what setup they've got going on though, if that's feasible or not. Would be nice if it is.

[ctcc42]

3k Comms is also about 6 years of work with how it is right now.

A friend and I started playing in January. Based on the number of coms we have accumulated 7 to 8 months seems to be enough to get about 1000 coms. Not saying Hyperius' point does not stand. More then a year of game time is more than enough to become complacent. Waiting so long to award mentor status may not be a good thing.

I know that after playing for 10 months my competence has dropped off a little. I have become more complacent and take runs less seriously then I did, so I can see it being a bad thing to only have mentors that have played for too long.

I really think the mentor icon should be changed to something a little more humble, and all requirements to use it should be removed. Mentor roulette requirements should stay the same. But as long as the icon remains 'exclusive' people are going to misuse it to demonstrate their prestige rather then its intended purpose. It only takes the suspicion that people are doing this to give mentors a negative rep. Even if all mentors truly just wanted to help people I am sure the assertion that they are 'just show offs' would still be made.

Maybe a better way to demonstrate our in game qualifications would be a special emote? That way we can still lend authority to our statements, but by making it on demand, rather then something stuck to our characters names we could avoid the stigma of wearing the mentor icon just to show off?

Honestly though. I think the concept of 'mentor' is slightly off target. I think we need a paradigm shift from 'mentor' to 'helper' A system that ostensibly separates knowledgeable players from non-knowledgeable players is always going to generate jealousy, resentment and negativity.

I think its grate for people to have an icon by their name that advertises: 'Hi I would love to help and answer questions'. But as long as that icon is tired to an expectation of knowledge and experience, people with it, without it, and who want it are going to remain in conflict.

[Tint]

I have realised something... I got my first 1500 commendations within one year, at the end of 2014, but that was with a lot of dungeon grinding because of the relic weapon. The SB relic was tied to Eureka and there are no commendations there... The next relic should be obtainable in dungeons again, increasing the commendation requirement but then force the players into content without commendations is kind of... not well thought through.

[Fluffernuff]

this is all just a thorny situation, without a clear cut answer if it's positive and negative. and the split that already existed is just being barfed back up to the surface again.

the main issue is the NN (say what you will about it) is currently the only way for mentors who actually want to mentor can interact with, network with, and reach out or help new players actually and actively looking for it.

no, you do not need a crown to help, sure. but I honestly challenge you to go out and go talk to anyone randomly in cities or towns with a sprout icon unsolicited. Send a whisper to any/everyone. Take your crown off. Spam the shout chat.

You'll reach some people, but you are going to get ALOT of people on trial that cant respond. people who dont want some random stranger talking to them and calling them new. youre going to get met with alot of silence at best. I can promise that. you WILL reach far less people than simply lurking in the NN.

what i menan to say with that rant is NN is a very invaluable tool for mentors, regardless of whatever evidence or anecdotes exist to the contrary. and without it, a mentor can do NOTHING within their own power to actually be a mentor.


Which makes things more thorny with the requirements, you dont want people who havent spent enough time in game to know the basics being in a position where they can spread outright lies, simply because they dont know the answer. However, you dont want to make mentorship an exclusive club, either. It's a very dystopian dream to think that limiting something to only the elite will cultivate a sense of comradery and humility. that actually IS the elephant in the room right now, isn't it? "burget king crowns"?

so while we have no say over what SE chooses to present to us, we as a community need to come to a consensus:


Do you want mentors to be exclusive and inherently "superior" in some sense and be a guiding hand through experience, skill, and ability?

Or do we want mentors to be "just the same" as anyone else, and are just something to throw sprouts at?



....because frankly, they are mutually exclusive to eachother

[Barraind]

I have realised something... I got my first 1500 commendations within one year, at the end of 2014, but that was with a lot of dungeon grinding because of the relic weapon. The SB relic was tied to Eureka and there are no commendations there... The next relic should be obtainable in dungeons again, increasing the commendation requirement but then force the players into content without commendations is kind of... not well thought through.

Thats part of it. I got my first 1500 when i spammed dungeons a lot.

When I came back to the game in SB after taking a break for a couple years, I was simultaneously able to be a returner and a mentor (ha).

Daily 50/60 for map and singing crystal, daily alliance/leveling/trial for xp and poetics, daily expert and raid for crafting mats and poetics, and daily whatever was left when people wanted to do them.

Now that I do raids once a week, and 3 dungeons a day at the absolute most (4 a day for the first week of this event to hit 100 for falcon + the one aquapolis orch roll), it'll take a long time to finish the couple hundred for my parade chocobo. But theres just no point in mashing out dungeons for me. I have no use for poetics beyond topsoil unless i want to do a 6th set of relic weapons at some point. I have no need for goetia since the market for those has already tanked, its easier to just buy it and not run the dungeon.

[SturmChurro]

I had to log in after a month or so of not logging in more or less to give my thoughts here on this.

I am glad about the requirements. 1500 commendations isn't too easy to get, veteran players should have this easily. I have well over the new amount, so it doesn't effect me (even if I wanted to become one again). This should cut down a bit on the particularly awful "mentors", but I think it should be more strict. Maybe even more, commendation requirements, and other, maybe new adjustments. Still, I don't think there is any salvaging of the current system, it would still be best off being shut down entirely, in my opinion.

[RyuSaarva]

you don't need skill to be a mentor, you need knowledge or the will to help people so you google the answer, if the mentor requirement take a lot of time then you should have some knowledge about the game so you can answer how to unlock palace of the dead or does the game have a transmog system questions, people don't ask raiding related questions.

[SturmChurro]

A commendation requirement on paper means that this player has reached quite a few commendations, so they must be doing something right to receive praise in this form from other players. In essence a high commendation requirement is a good idea. Doesn't really work exactly this way in practice however. Veteran players have most likely already accumulated more than the required amount from just passively doing various content without going above and beyond in any way over the years.

you don't need skill to be a mentor, you need knowledge or the will to help people so you google the answer, if the mentor requirement take a lot of time then you should have some knowledge about the game so you can answer how to unlock palace of the dead or does the game have a transmog system questions, people don't ask raiding related questions.

You don't even need to be a mentor to answer the simple related questions. There should just be a general new player chat channel. They really should just close the system. In my opinion, even a high end content mentor is equally useless. At that point a player looking for help into that kind of content would be better off getting help from other means, such as video or written guides.

[SunAurel]

I'd like to bring up a few things.
I'm a mentor on shivas NN and I'd say we are doing a good job in general regarding new players. Most leaflings don't want to leave the chat at all because forming communities is extremely easy, as is finding friends. 80% of my friend list is made out of former sprouts I've mentored and who did not want to leave NN because it has become their most important social community and after they leave, they try to get crafting mentor asap to return.

Since they immediately went from sprout to mentor they barely have experience to mentor others and can't answer a lot of basic questions and haven't had much experience when it comes to content.

A general chat would be very good, but yes it has to be regulated somehow. I honestly think that starting with lvl 70 you should be able to sign up for one general chat. That way, sprouts can form ties in the novice chat while they are novices and keep those once they are out of the chat without a linkshell. The thing with NN is that there are always new people coming an, so it's always fresh.

Since there are no RMT bots at lvl 70 they can't sign up for that.

As for moderation they could introduce a "moderator" role with harsh requirements. 3k Comms or whatever, those are the people who would be able to kick and moderate the chat but reports against them for unjust kicking would be immediately forwarded to a GM. Or there could be a "request GM" button that notifies a GM. 5 reports for unjust kicking and they can't become moderator for a while.
It's not ideal, I know, there is always some sort of power imbalance when it comes to letting your own community moderate itself.

This chat would also have clear guidelines like no trade chat, no FC advertisements, etc.

This would at least somehow offer an alternative to linkshells who -imo- are pretty flawed and way too small and static and give People a chance to socialize.

I'd also be up for monthly elections of moderators since I know at least 10 people in the NN who are always online and do great work when things get out of hand.

[RoyalBeef]

As for moderation they could introduce a "moderator" role with harsh requirements.

Oh god please no, I can already imagine the kind of personality a position like that would attract. Mods should be SE employees only.
As for self moderation of communities: Only way to handle that is open world pvp. Didn't like what someone said? Go and shut them up, or get rekt and deal with it ^^