Tried to design Chemist

[Archwizard]

And really there's only 3 roles, just there's 3 different types of 1 of those roles. And I don't recall moaning that we didn't get a 4th healer this time around, this thread is a suggestion of a 4th healer and I gave a suggestion of a flavour of it. - shrugs-

The difference between the "3 different types" of DPS is enough that Stormblood introduced two DPS jobs with wildly different roles, and no tanks or healers.

And no, you didn't "moan we didn't get a 4th healer this time around," but you literally complain in the same post "they didn't add a 4th healer because of balance concerns." You're trying to have it both ways, mate.
To be clear: the point I'm trying to make is that their justification for not adding Chemist back when they originally planned in HW is not the same as their justification for not adding "a healer" in ShB, nor does it mean when the planning phase for the next expansion comes around, that the same justification for not implementing a healer will hold indefinitely.
Yoshi literally stated that one of the reasons they implemented DNC as a ranged DPS was because of the lack of options for ranged jobs compared to other roles. Well, we have 4 tanks and 4 melee now, so if the same reasoning holds then next expansion is due for another caster, healer, and/or ranger -- and we just got a ranged job.

I'm simply stating that based on the precedent, unless they've come up with very new ideas for the same job since then, I find it very unlikely that the next healer will specifically be Chemist.

I should have read the interview before taking your word for granted, I read the section where they talked about AST. Yoshi P talked lore points, they had considered an item wielder like chemist, but found Astrologians were more widespread in Ishgard and felt it was appropriate, they also considered "could they hold a gun?" and then thought reading the stars was much more appropriate.

I saw another bit where they talked about balance, but they talked more about DPS roles and I didn't see AST or Chemist mentioned.

What's also interesting from that interview is that back then, their goal was to make it so you can do the content with your roles, rather than design new jobs to fix balance issues. I agree with the approach, though it feels they have since deviated from it at present.

Couple points here:

1. While I admit I'm having trouble finding the actual interview(s) that are more specific in backing it up, both TV Tropes and the FF Wiki state,

[W]hen information for Heavensward was buzzing about, Michael "Fernehalwes" Koji-Fox said that the expansion wouldn't have a new DPS class, but a healer one. Later in that same fan fest, he heavily alluded to a gun using class. Come the December fan fest, he showed that there was indeed a new DPS class: Machinists, and the healers he was talking about are Astrologians, an entirely new, completely unforeshadowed class. In a later Live Letter Koji admitted that when he made that statement, there really were plans for a gun-toting healer class based on the Chemist from Final Fantasy Tactics. However, there were enough problems regarding mechanics during the preliminary phase of development that they scrapped the idea and made the Machinist and Astrologian instead.

Astrologian was originally planned to be Chemist. Due to balancing problems with the Mix command and the desire to implement an all-new weapon type, the idea was scrapped. Mixing items turned into drawing cards. The Stormblood expansion built upon this with the ability to turn standard buff cards into attack or heal cards, further echoing the use of Mix commands from other titles.

2. I think you're wildly overstating the point with "doing content with your roles rather than new jobs". In this case, the intent is for every healer to have the same base ability and tools needed to complete raid content, even if not the same ability to parse in FF Logs. "Adding new jobs to fix balance issues" is a stretch for the current design, as while Gunbreaker verged on that with regards to Yoshi-P previously stating an intent to add a new off-tank to balance the tank roles out, GNB instead became an opportunity to rebalance all of the existing tanks to fulfill all tasks equally. I personally expect that a new healer could potentially lead to similar re-examination of existing healer jobs.
... I just don't think a job based entirely off of instant healing and minimal spellcasting is going to bring that examination about.

Agreed on these points. I just feel that the distance indicated here allows plentiful berth for SCH's future advancements. It's not a matter of principle -- taking opportunities, where presented, for new jobs over conserving them for old jobs' advancements -- either; after all, I still think Conjurer would fully and compellingly eclipse Geomancer, or at least provide a base job for it, provided that the devs were ever willing to separate job-experience progression past their branching points. This is simply one where I feel the difference in techniques and alleged purpose are sufficient, and differences in lore, style, mood, and aesthetic are more than sufficient, to warrant something separate from Scholar. I'm all for improving upon Scholar and finally fleshing out its identity as more than just differently flavored approaches to a generic healer kit. I just don't think it needs so much space here that chemist-derivatives or the like must be shelved indefinitely until those additions are complete.

I'd been discussing with a friend some time ago that apparently some datamined info back in 1.0 hinted that the broad elemental abilities given to Conjurer were intended to be a gateway into introducing Geomancer as an alternate branch off it at a later point, had Scholar's implementation not soured the devs to the idea of branching jobs. Not that a lot of information still persists from back then to back his claims, although the existing principle seems sound enough.

[Shurrikhan]

I'd been discussing with a friend some time ago that apparently some datamined info back in 1.0 hinted that the broad elemental abilities given to Conjurer were intended to be a gateway into introducing Geomancer as an alternate branch off it at a later point, had Scholar's implementation not soured the devs to the idea of branching jobs. Not that a lot of information still persists from back then to back his claims, although the existing principle seems sound enough.

I'm not even talking about basis from 1.0. Back then THM had access to 0 prime elements (only Umbral/Astral/Blood/Poison) and CNJ had access to all 6. You essentially had the Oracle and the Elementalist. It didn't need to branch into a Geomancer; it was a Geomancer, just with even more in its purview.

Conjurer was then split in two, becoming the new THM and reduced CNJ. Old THM was entirely removed as a concept and salvaged into the much less unique Arcanist's unaspected spells. (Oddly enough, ACN was not the next job on the roadmap for 1.x. Musketeer was. It even had its whole guild hall complete and there were frequently included in the other LL jobs' questlines. Yoshida then scrapped it, moved the Marauder hall from the pirate fleet to the Musketeer's Coral Tower, and introduced Arcanist instead specifically so that he could implement his alternate healer via a branching class.)

But, since Geomancers as referenced in this game take far more from the light elements, Wind, Water, and Earth, with usually only Fire mentioned besides, it seems reasonable that even the post-split take on CNJ would be able to support GEO. (Just to get an idea of its origins), if crossclass were still a thing, it'd probably be CNJ>AST. Iirc, the whole Cure line of spells are aetherized water? This was touched on more in 1.2+; Fluid Aura itself hearkened back to when the (outer layer, at least, of your) Artifact Robe was literally a corporealization of a water sprite you'd bonded, who could then be used for further defense atop the water aether you'd draw through yourself during curative tasks. The more intense your healing, the more versatile aether you evoked to use for cleansing, personal defense, suppression, or other utilities. That seems pretty Geomancer to me.

[Archwizard]

That seems pretty Geomancer to me.

I feel we're getting pretty off-topic with this thread, but my understanding of Geomancer based on what we've seen in Stormblood is that it exists as something of an inversion to the Conjurers of the Twelveswood. While Conjurers focus on communing with and serving the elementals to pacify their anger and contract them for their power, Geomancers are specialists in warding off or even subjugating malicious spirits, even acting as exterminators. Conjurers are based more out of a western Druidic tradition of reverence towards nature and specialists in healing, while Geomancers are literally based on Feng Shui and -- being called Elementalists in some FF entries -- largely use their elemental powers for offense. While Kyokuho's abilities bear resemblance to modified Conjury (which I expect are more due to limitations from not implementing a functional Geomancer yet), Swallow's Compass shows several examples of the use of Geomancy that completely stray from Eorzean Conjury, such as summoning tidal waves and tornadoes, or even calling forth elemental constructs.

(I could also argue inversions to AST -- the obvious sources of power, AST promoting fate vs GEO promoting fortune, etc -- but as their powersets have very little practical overlap it's somewhat moot here.)

Hence my previous statement: I can see Geomancers existing as a means to deliver to players the elemental spells WHM won't see, not simply because WHM has strayed from its roots in favor of Holy magic, but because as a healer, it has no need for a complex multi-elemental system of attack magic -- while a caster DPS with logical access to the same elements and skills absolutely could.
Y'know, like how PLD uses Holy magic for tanking versus WHM's healing, or GNB and MCH both use guns for wildly different purposes, or DNC and BRD cover parallel areas of entertainment within the same role.

And I see no harm in wishing for what SE has previously suggested that "we can't do because of balance".

Right, but the problem is that the comparisons you've drawn are apples-to-oranges.

"SE didn't want to add a new healer in ShB because they wanted to balance the other healers first" is a concern that is dependent on the environment of the existing game, which changes as the existing healers do -- and they already have substantially with this expansion, hopefully in a direction the devs are happier with. It carries the innate conditional, "once they feel healers are better balanced, we might see a new healer."

"SE didn't want to add Chemist 'cuz they couldn't figure out how to make its core gimmick work" is a concern attached to the history of the concept; the only innate conditional is "Maybe if they figure out how."
"They can try again" is... technically correct, sure? But it's a hope dependent on the devs getting a new result from attempting to do the same thing they've previously tried -- the definition of insanity. And while they could have had new ideas about Mix since then, the fact that AST now exists as a potential repository for those same ideas (see: the current Divination system, where you almost literally "mix" seals to affect its potency) means it's less likely that CHM would provide unique enough gameplay from the existing healing jobs to justify being separate from those we already have.

My primary concern is that people are asking for Chemist/Salve Maker/whatever, not because they're excited for the unique gameplay opportunities it would bring (if they did, they would provide practical suggestions on how to implement it, the lack of which was the literal first critique about this thread, and the scramble to do so concluding with "copy other jobs"), and more because they like the idea of bringing a "classic" job forward from previous FF entries in spite of the practicality of such.
I come into these threads hoping to see something that would not only inspire me to want to play Chemist, but the devs to want to make something unique; demand alone doesn't fuel creativity, especially when the "demand" comes out to "just copy this other thing."

The comparison for "physical ranged" is better measured against other DPS: 3 magical, 4 melee, 3 ranged physical.

You're getting pedantic about an argument you brought up which would ultimately have no bearing on my conclusion. I see no need to continue that track.

Where you've quoted, it mentions the issue was in the "mix" mechanic. The OP's suggestions lack a "mix" mechanic.

And if you read a bit lower down the page...

>I think you are focusing only on one aspect of the main aspect of Chemist. Basically "Throw Potion" is more like a subset of the Chemist's primary gimmick mixing, ie the Mix command. You might want to focus on that more to open things up a bit.

Yes I do agree on that. I was thinking of adapting the Mudra system or the card system for it as well. Or maybe a system where the Chemist can grab "ingredients" while he/she keeps up auto attacks, and the Chemist can choose to add or discard the ingredients.
I would need to flesh out the idea some more! I was also thinking of having the ammunition system from MCH. Each "Throw potion" consumes one "Potion Ammo" and the Chemist can choose to "recycle those potions" and mix them up with the next batch, increasing their potency.

... that's more of a confession of oversight regarding an iconic job ability, than an attempt to be unique by leaving it out.

[Payotz]

I've made a bunch of changes to the concept!
Check the first post and tell me what you think!

Changelog:
- Removed stance dancing as the main mechanic
- Removed "Regen/Pure healer role"
- Added dots to auto attacks.
- Added Mix mechanic and Brewed Potion mechanic.
- Added "Corrosives" Trait
- Added Ingredients Mechanic

As always, thank you for your feedback!

[Saefinn]

And no, you didn't "moan we didn't get a 4th healer this time around," but you literally complain in the same post "they didn't add a 4th healer because of balance concerns." You're trying to have it both ways, mate.

This was in response to your argument that Chemist was not introduced because they had issues with balance but not a complaint. I said they didn't add a 4th healer because of balance problems. Yet people are still asking for a 4th healer.

I'm glad they didn't add a 4th healer in ShB and that DNC turned into a ranged DPS, I main a DNC now and love it. But I don't think healers in general are in a good state and a 4th healer would likely suffer from the problems we have now. This is what I have argued in other threads, whilst at -first- I was disappointed we'd not get another healer this time around, I didn't feel I was -entitled- to one and there are still outstanding problems to healing in general. I think to an extent a 4th healer could potentially help balance depending on their approach, but I still share their concern is that it'd have worsened things rather than helped things, especially as we still have glaring problems with them balancing the current three, to the point where they've made healing more boring, and still have balancing issues. A part of me says "accept you can't properly balance them, make them fun again, just don't gimp them so they're still able to clear all content." I don't care if SCH (my former main) is top healer or the worst healer or for healers to be closely balanced, I'm not in the top percentile where it matters.

And I see no harm in wishing for what SE has previously suggested that "we can't do because of balance".

This is not me complaining that we've not had a 4th healer in this expansion as I am arguing that Chemist is not such a bad idea or a poor idea to pursue. Situations change and can be changed. Chemist is one that I see keep coming up.

Yoshi literally stated that one of the reasons they implemented DNC as a ranged DPS was because of the lack of options for ranged jobs compared to other roles.

And that doesn't mean I have to agree that they are separate roles. This is because the game is built around a holy trinity. I don't agree that "3 healer and 3 ranged physical" would be a the right metric for role distribution. I think "3 healers and 10 DPS" is fairer, at least when talking about roles.

The comparison for "physical ranged" is better measured against other DPS: 3 magical, 4 melee, 3 ranged physical.

But "ranged physical", "magic" and "melee" don't have any meaning beyond position and the presence of cast bars. They fulfill the same role of outputting the most DPS they can, whether it's selfishly or through utility. Whilst DNC could be argued as being closer to the concept of a "support DPS" we lack that classification and DNC could have had the same design approach and be a melee class (and it is semi-melee already) and still fulfill the same role

that the same justification for not implementing a healer will hold indefinitely.

And who is to say their justification for not adding a Chemist-type class will hold indefinitely? If, say, it's something players want.

Where you've quoted, it mentions the issue was in the "mix" mechanic. The OP's suggestions lack a "mix" mechanic.

This is because there are multiple ways such a job can work. They chose to scrap it back then, but "Chemist" and "Geomancer" are the two requests I see most frequently. Both have arguments as to why they might be unlikely, but there's a chance they'll consider the jobs people ask for and try to make them work, because they already have with other jobs people wanted.

Not saying they will in this instance, but, I don't think trying is so futile.