Ranged DPS role is about to be excluded from all content

[Vendalwind]

It's just as easy to say that melee's in every tier since Midas are just as easy to play as any job seeing as half of them have essentially been dummy fights that allow for near 100% uptime, and the deeper we get into the game the more tools melee's get to make it easier to mitigate those losses. Everything you are spouting is no less nonsensical then anything anyone else is spouting. Speaking as someone who has played every role in savage, their isn't a single one that has any easier time of it then the others, and the few times they do it is fight dependent. No one wants to be a caster player in Titan, no one wants to play melee in Halicarnassus, no one wants to be ranged during Omega.

Half the reason right now that we have such a massive disparity in DPS is because the current raid tier is SIGNIFICANTLY slanted in the favor of melee DPS and turret like DPS with Black Mage, and the "mobility and Rez" taxes equal out to too much because their is no mechanics that force the mobile classes to do what no other job can. The other half is balance. Yes their is a shit one or two moments in eden and titan that can feel a bit rough for a melee, but outside of that, this current tier is a melee paradise. Trying to say any different is just being ignorant.

A lot of what you say is correct. it is very fight dependent. BUT it is not ignorant to say such things. Ignorant is downplaying, being un-aware of, or outright ignoring, things that directly contribute to difficulty in an attempt to make one side of an argument seem more correct. Why do people always have to throw around assumptions about people's understanding or lack thereof? can you not just argue your points? My post is not ignorant. It literally concludes with a statement noting that it is not actually possible to reach a conclusion about Caster being more difficult than Melee or Vise Versa.

Even in E2 melee have a harder time by a distinct measure dodging the floating heads. And Casters have to move for their floating heads.
My point is: even in dummy fights there are small things that make melee, or caster, more difficult than ranged and can be clearly seen. Maintaining uptime during quietus cycle phases for example is a absolute chokehold nightmare to do perfectly.

So no, you can't say they are just as easy, cause even in those fights that are much more melee friendly we still frequently have to deal with tighter placements.

And before this goes too far Let me again say: I want to see the ranged buffed so they are only between 100-400 less dps than the weakest of the melee. I just disagree with the blatant misrepresentation of difficulty people attribute to the ranged Phys class. Melee and casters are more difficult to optimize fight specifically. this is pretty much a truth tho not an objective fact.

[Katie_Kitty]

So close, and yet so far. if you only actually made your obtuse points yourself, then real conversation could occur.

I did lmao. If you actually read my posts then you would know that. Trying to compare them and declare one more "difficult" than the other is BS from the getgo.

It is entirely opinion that caster OR melee is more difficult than the other. There are too many things impossible to compare.
Ranged on the other hand is directly comparable because it doesn't have EITHER of the functions that bring difficulty to the other two roles.[/QUOTE[

Any difficulty given to ranged can be attributed only to two things: The classes RNG procs (which some casters and melee have too btw)
Or the mechanics it is forced to handle

WHICH BTW is an exterior source of difficulty. IE the class itself is LESS difficult and it is the CONTENT that demands or puts some measure of difficulty into playing the class. THUS RANGED PHYS is as a CLASS less difficult.

This entire section of your post is nonsensical and hypocritical. You don't get just to decide "This difficulty matters, but this difficulty does not." That's a joke and makes you look like a joke of a person who is only interested in downplaying phys ranged for whatever reason.

As a matter of fact, there is no universe in which being forced to adapt and react to a proc-based rotation is somehow simpler than a melee where your entire rotation is set strictly in stone and all you have to do is attribute it to muscle memory and perform it around the few mechanics you have to consider while playing. This is like saying playing Paladin is more difficult than Red Mage, which frankly is completely wrong. I can join up to a savage party on PLD at 4AM half-asleep and just go through the motions of my static rotation alongside the mechanics I have memorized and there is no adjustment, thinking, or anything else that would make it more complicated than doing the same savage fight as a red mage. Optimizing a proc-based job is, by definition, more difficult than any job with a rotation that is 90% static or more.

[Vendalwind]

snip.

Oh wow! So many opinions stated as fact! hyperbolic fact even!
perhaps you should go back and re-read my post before you keep proving you have terrible reading comprehension. (or terrible ability to extend subject matter into the sphere of what was being said, please consider BLM and MNK)

[Dogempire]

How about when the bosses rear is about to explode, in a zone that nobody else is in so your share-damage-or-die mechanic will kill you on bad timing, judging whether or not your GCD will roll in time to make the movement worthwhile, and whether or not you can make it back to safety to make the extra bit of potency for the bonus not result in dying?

Nothing in a vacuum is big brained.

There's this skill called true north, I suggest using it

[Kabooa]

There's this skill called true north, I suggest using it

Oh, that thing Ranged don't need?

Neat.

Having an ability to deal with a bad situation doesn't trump not having to deal with it at all, as it still presents the opportunity for error ("Difficulty").

[Vendalwind]

Snip

Thank you for this. We needed this for sure.

I do realize (don't worry) some of your criticism is pointed at me.

However I would like to make a few opinion statements, while matching my credentials against yours. Please note these are opinion statements.

I have played NIN in Stormblood and Shadowbringers. He was my Main
I also played MNK in ARR and BRD, and SAM during Stormblood (on a different character)
I did not play any classes beyond sigmascape in Stormblood as I took a break from the game then.
The only Melee I have not played at Max lvl currently is DRG.
Currently in Shadowbringers I have also played DNC and MNK in at least one of the trials and through E2 each.

My least experience is most certainly with Casters however I have played with BLM a little on a friends account (just against a training dummy dont worry I wouldnt ToS ruin myself by playing another account i didnt own in any actual content) with the friend present. Additionally I indirectly know a lot of this friends difficulty as I have poured over videos of content to attempt to help him optimize because I am the leader of our static.
Casters are innately very tough to manage. because the choice of what spell to cast and when has a lot of micro-decisions involved in it such as knowing if it will enable a non-clip weave further down the line + immobility etc.

I PERSONALLY feel that my main NIN is by far the most difficult class. However I would say learning to Caster other than RDM right now is very very hard and I would put it on a similar lvl as a MNK without earth's reply.
SAM your professed melee job is I.M.O. the easiest of melee jobs, but I haven't played dragoon so i cant say for sure. But I can definitely say my feeling learning the classes was that SAMs optimizations and basics were exceedingly easy to learn and perform compared to perfecting NIN or MNK. (which lets be honest I haven't perfected either yet, but I do lurk alot EVERYWHERE on the balance discord so I know what perfections looks like)

My experience with bard was that it was fun with a few annoying things, but pretty much just free to do whatever it wanted in stormblood. And my experience with DNC is that its the absolute dang easiest thing to play in the game ever. Optimizing takes some skill yes, you have to learn to hold certain procs and feathers for optimization windows, but it really isnt very stressful even at that. In extremes and savages playing DNC was like a cool breeze on a beach compared to the hell scorn that NIN deals with.
And lets talk about proc based difficulty.
Unlike the melee and Caster exclusive difficulties; other classes also have proc based events that impact their class. BLM thunder procs? MNK chakras?

So I havent played MCH, or BRD specifically in shadowbringers. But i do have some experience. And my experience has taught me that ranged is far easier to play in so many ways than caster OR melee. I couldn't outright say melee is harder than caster cause SAM and possibly DRG are pretty easy. But I can outright say NIN is harder than BLM at the very least for me, at that DNC is the easiest thing I've ever touched, at the very least for me.

My final point: some of us do absolutely have experience with multiple roles. And it is true, making sweeping statements about a role is absolutely unfactual since variation in role is vast (SMN->RDM, MCH->DNC, NIN->DRG/SAM). But we can still state what we feel. It has long been my feeling that the difficulties all melee deal with, and the difficulties all Casters deal with, are distinctly harder to manage in real time than the not even unique random procs that ranged deals with.

AND I can tell you right now. If dancer was capable of doing as much per percentile dmg as NINja. I wouldn't be playing NIN right now because my static would force me into a DNC role. Why? because as a team dealing with two melees is far more difficult than one melee one caster two phys ranged, AND id probably more easily out DPS my NIN by far because playing dancer literally takes half the brainpower playing NIN does at current. So If DNC was as Strong as NIN (both high dps utility classes) I know for a fact I would be ostracized and called a burden by my static for choosing to play NIN. even tho Im a pretty dang good NIN. When SHB released I was parsing 75th Up on NIN. But no one cared because they knew I could do better as even a 10th percentile MNK. So I played Monk. Thus ranged really need a buff right now cause the drastic difference in damage is causing that same thing to occur, but it most certainly shouldnt be equal to melee or Caster DPS, at least in my opinion.

[Dogempire]

Oh, that thing Ranged don't need?

Neat.

Having an ability to deal with a bad situation doesn't trump not having to deal with it at all, as it still presents the opportunity for error ("Difficulty").

Oh noooo, I chose to play a melee class and to land hits I have to stay in melee range and hit positionals just to do damage, oh nooo... If only there was some indication that was part of the job like if it was in the name.

You seem like the kind of person who goes into the self checkout lane at Wal-Mart because the line is shorter and then complains there's no cashier to scan and bag your items. Can't you go be stupid on some other thread?

[Kabooa]

Oh noooo, I chose to play a melee class and to land hits I have to stay in melee range and hit positionals just to do damage, oh nooo... If only there was some indication that was part of the job like if it was in the name.

You seem like the kind of person who goes into the self checkout lane at Wal-Mart because the line is shorter and then complains there's no cashier to scan and bag your items. Can't you go be stupid on some other thread?

It's easy not to see the challenge in something you choose to actively not do.

Minimizing the efforts and demands of other roles isn't a good look. I get you want your gun to go pop pop, and while Machinist has its own challenges, the ranged role in general has much fewer. They are, quite simply, at a baseline, not negatively impacted by so many basic mechanics it's extremely easy to take that for granted.

But hey, if we want to throw out a few barbs and slings.

You seem like the kind of person to tell a legless man he should take the stairs instead of the elevator, because it's good exercise.

[Katie_Kitty]

That RDM talking about optimizations prompted me to post. This is for all of you.

I find it kinda funny that the last few pages can be boiled down to, "My job archetype is the hardest" when basically none of you have played anything else at all. I'm only counting savage because it's not as faceroll as Extremes are. Almost none of you have any real level of perspective. If you did, you'd know that the conversation this thread has derailed into is hilariously shallow. This is because the simple answer is this:

All DPS job archetypes have unique challenges and difficulties that need to be met to do well with. Some people will find some challenges harder then others.

Proc-Based/Physical Ranged: Managing Procs and Priorities
Casters: Managing Movement and Uptime
Melee/Set Rotation: Managing Uptime and Rotation

I've played all 3 archetypes at either high or top levels and none of them are inherently "harder" then the others. Before anyone calls my credentials into question:

Proc-Based: Bard, Sigmascape
Casters: BLM/SMN, Deltascape / Sigmascape / post-Echo Alphascape / Current Tier
Melee/Set Rotation: SAM, Deltascape / Alphascape (week 1 clear)

Each has its unique challenges to overcome to do well with. To say your archetype has it worse is ignorance. I mean, out of the last 3 pages, I didn't see a SINGLE person with a Savage-level clear of a job outside of the archetype they're saying is a toughie. You ALL need a bit of perspective.

And, to the RDM that is saying proc-based is "harder to optimize:" honey, you talk with so much unearned confidence. Proc jobs can be just as mindless as Melee when just playing and can be just as hard as melee when you get to REAL optimization processes for a fight. What you're ACTUALLY saying is that you have difficulty following a basic priority system.

Sorry if this is a bit harsh for some of you to hear. I lurk this thread sometimes and you all are 1) missing the whole point of the topic (which we have an answer for: it didn't happen and was all fear mongering) and 2) are basically arguing the semantics of a falsehood.

Hopefully you guys get a bit more perspective.

Actually if you'd read my posts then you'd know that my entire point is exactly what you said here. The only reason why I even brought up proc-based jobs was in response to the other poster attempting to talk as if pressing the same rotation in the same order every single time is somehow harder than proc-based jobs. But I guess coming in here acting high-and-mighty is more important than actually knowing what the conversation you're forcing yourself into is actually about.

[Vendalwind]

Actually if you'd read my posts then you'd know that my entire point is exactly what you said here. The only reason why I even brought up proc-based jobs was in response to the other poster attempting to talk as if pressing the same rotation in the same order every single time is somehow harder than proc-based jobs. But I guess coming in here acting high-and-mighty is more important than actually knowing what the conversation you're forcing yourself into is actually about.

You manage to insult so many people at the same time while still spouting incorrect statements AND pretending your previous posts somehow had a highground inherant point that no one is getting.

Have you ever considered no one gets your point because you are abyssmally terrible and making any points? Coherant or valid? You prove yourself again and again incapable of a rational thought when it comes to the difficulty and adaptations melee have to make.