Eden Savage Loot

[HyoMinPark]

yes I did did you see mine above where I said a number of times I am suggesting a solution for people who pug, so that they can gear themselves and not have to contend with everyone and all their possible 15 classes.

These were solutions that would affect both pugs and statics. So, relevant to your scenario.

There is no perfect scenario where no one would have to compete with anyone else. If that is what you are after, you will never achieve it. Even in a static, we still compete for things like weapon and body coffers (to give two examples).

Yes he had the BiS he did not need the belt for his Bard, tbh from what classes he had levelled I dont know why he rolled for the belt, I think he just did it for the sake of it, I did genuinely go and check this. I think I actually pointed this out a few times now.

I’ve already addressed the belt—I addressed it in my very first post to you. What about the headpiece: was it i470 Augmented or i470 Savage? That’s the question I’ve asked you.

I think this is a good solution guarantees no one gets a useless drop - I mean that's a good solution, Personally I dont see a downfall with this.

The downfall is the impossibility for alt class gear to even be obtained. If you have a person who secondaries NIN, but your group doesn’t have a NIN present, how else is Scouting gear going to drop in this system if the loot tables are configured to the jobs within the instance? Eventually, people do gear their mains and alt loot is why they run the content. Implementing a system that destroys running Savage after your main has gear will kill the content faster, which the developers do not want.

The solution to gearing your alt classes I think being in a static is a solution for this alone.

So...your solution for those who want to gear alt jobs is to join a static? You realize that this is a two-way street, yes? If you want to reliably gear your main, join a static.

This isn’t a solution.

The main issue I have come here about is the way the system is for people who pug things. I personally feel it needs to be better, and personally for people who pug things I think a system should be put in place where if the person has an item equipped they shouldn't be able to roll on the EXACT same item, if they want to gear a different class come on that class - that's personally my own opinion. The system is very bad for people who pug things, and dose need to be fixed, that's all I am saying.

That was already the case prior—if the Headpiece of Aiming dropped and someone was already wearing the headpiece, they could not roll on it. Obviously, because these pieces are Unique and you cannot carry more than one of a Unique item.

This will not work for coffers, however, because the coffers are not “Head Coffer of Aiming” or “Head Coffer of Healing”; they are just “Head Coffer”. You cannot completely lock players out of rolling for a coffer, and the developers will never do this. The only alternative they would possibly implement is the option to Greed Only for players that have a Savage piece equipped—i.e., If you have the Savage headpiece currently equipped on your job, you cannot roll Need for the headpiece coffer, only Greed. Which I think would be fair—but know that even this kind of system will not completely eliminate those rolling for alt jobs—they may be wearing an Augmented i470 headpiece but roll on the Coffer because their alt uses the Savage, for example.

Also you may be happy to take things for you alts when people need them to gear their main, but I personally am not, I would prefer people to be able to gear their main classes first. I'm happy for that I mean I pass on the things I have got, I dont see what the issue is I mean I will not be unhappy that my summoner hasnt got the 470 earrings or my monk both classes are my alt classes and I never play them, so I dont care if they are 470 or 450, personally if the belt drops and someone hasnt got it on their main I am happy for that person to have it.

Hmm, I think you shouldn’t presume to speak on what I’m happy to take and what I’m not happy to take. Not that it’s any of your business, but I’ve passed on tons of loot for my alt jobs in my static so that others could have it for their alt classes. The only time I really freeroll on alt gear is if no one else wants it—just so the coffer doesn’t hit the floor.

[Noitems]

I agree with Hyomin on this. The system now allows everyone a piece to be useable and not have a situation of abandoned gear. Yeah it sucks rolling against everyone but the difference now is that you have a much higher chance of getting extra gear for your job on top of the book since the pool is bigger with coffers.

However if anything I would like a inventory check for it where the game checks your inventory to see if you have the item for your current job and assign the loot actions based on that. For example if you're playing a tank and currently do not have the tank headpiece for E2S allowing you to need, while on the flipside only allowing you to greed if you do have it.

While some jobs BIS is Deepshadow and would still allow them to need if they currently don't have them I think a system like that would be an improvement to our current one. At least adopting more of the JP mindset of getting people who really need the gear taken care of first before those leveling their alts.

[HyoMinPark]

where did I say perfect ? I have said better a number of times, not said perfect once. . . just better please read what I have written.

You’re asking for a system where you don’t have to compete with other players, as per that post I quoted. Contrary to what you think, I am reading. Are you?

I have already stated a number of times BiS . . . I wont repeat myself again so please read what I have already written a number of times.

You merely said i470 headpiece. There are two kinds. I still don’t know if this BRD had the Savage one or the Augmented I’m because you’ve never said. Hence why I keep asking. You could just clarify rather than coping an attitude.

I am talking about main jobs and a solution for people who use pugs, who have to contend with people who are now running pugs after gearing their main jobs and possible an alt with their statics, maybe their static is now taking a break, not people who are in statics and gearing alt jobs. I'm talking about people who are doing it alone.

Yes. And I’m offering solutions to cater to these individuals. As I’ve previously iterated.

Im sorry I previously stated why I am currently not in one did you not read that ? Clearly you didn't, so allow me to explain I was rushed in to hospital to have emergency surgery after a very serious illness, I came out I became unwell again and then went back in, this was before savage was released I believe I may have missed the first week, and while I was away I got replaced, by the static leaders GF, said static have since disbanded because they couldn't get the E1S clear. Also No I never said the solution was to join a Static, mind most people who are in a static do gear their alt jobs this way, I am saying that there has to be a better system in place loot wise, because this one is not working, for example the bard claimed he was gearing his 5th class (how true that is I dont know) but I can tell you now he had all 470 gear equipped, and the classes he used I wonder why he rolled for anything.

I don’t really care why you are or aren’t in a static. I’m telling you that telling those who want to gear alts to join a static for it is as much a non-solution as telling someone who wants to gear their main to join a static is. Some people don’t want to join statics—so telling them to join one to gear alts doesn’t really get you anywhere. Just like telling you to join one to gear your main doesn’t get them anywhere. Two way street.

Can I point something out here NEED always wins over GREED so you yourself are suggesting a system that cuts gearing alt classes out - also yes I do understand what you are saying with the Deepshadow augmented gear. . . I understand exactly what you are saying but my point that I am making is this - some people have managed to gear their mains and their alt classes while some people who use pugs are still trying to gear their main classes, I think the system needs to be improved for people who use pugs - thats what I am saying, and I am sure people who are not in a static like you are and are puging it like I am would agree.

I already said that this was an imperfect system. But thank you for pointing out that it’s imperfect.

Bad luck (or good luck) is simply luck. You were just as like to have bad luck with the old system with simply not getting drops. Mathematically, this new system is better. But RNG is a cruel mistress—speaking as someone who has crap rolls all the time.

However, I am starting to fall under the impression you aren’t interested in what I have to say simply because I’m in a static. I may not be pugging now, but I have in the past. So I can understand what it’s like to have crap luck. But anyways, this is my last response to you.

[Noitems]

Yes true it dose but also people are rolling against everyone where as before if FENDING gear dropped then only tanks could roll NEED on it - not someone who doesnt play tank but suddenly fancies gearing a tank

I dunno i'd feel pretty awful in that case if I'm rolling against another tank there is a 50/50 chance I can get a piece of gear that MAY drop in my week of playing.

With more and more jobs getting adding I think this coffer system will be the norm, it's if they adopt the ways to manage it that I think the majority will be happy.

[DrWho2010]

how exactly would the game know if you're in a static or not? that's not something the devs should need to take into consideration when creating a loot system.

RNGesus is rngesus.

Also there is 6 MONTHS in a tier. there is plenty of time. just because you can't gear up as fast as some others doesn't mean the system should change.

[Elladie]

I was reading the thread with interest, but then you got very snippy, OP, so I lost interest in what you were saying and any possible solutions you might have to offer. You might want to take on board the suggestion that using an unpleasant tone to people who don't immediately agree with you isn't going to win you fans. Hyomin is a popular poster who always presents her remarks politely; even if I don't agree with her views - I often don't - I always appreciate hearing them for the well presented insights. But you just started to come across as aggressive when she pointed out problems with your solutions

[Mavrias]

Honestly the system youve suggested just sounds like it'll make it harder for pug parties to form. Currently, the way it works allows me to fill any role in a party i please, tank, healer, or dps, and still lot on gear for whatever alt class i please. For example, a party is mostly filled just waiting on tanks, so despite me having all i need from e1s as a tank, i can join that party to get drops for healer.

Under your suggestion, since those healer slots are already filled for that party and i wouldnt be able to roll need as tank, i'd just have to make my own party. Now there are two unfilled parties in party finder.

[Billythepancake]

So, reading your suggestion, I don't think going back to the older system is the best solution,because the new system is just too good to statics to really throw away like that. However, a better solution,I think, would be to add 1 item at the end of every floor (kind of like how e4s drops 1 random weapon and a weapon coffer) and make that item be for something that's currently on your team.

[HyoMinPark]

I decided to make one more post to thorough address some of the things said in response to me after my last post. I’ll start with the proposed solutions in the opening post, and then just go from there. Warning: this post will be long.

I would like to possibly suggest 2 possible remedy's

Firstly make it so people who have the gear piece cant roll on that gear piece

This was already addressed by myself in a post, but I’ll address it again a bit more thoroughly now that I am not posting from a mobile device. Yes, the developers could make a system like this: if you are currently equipped with a Savage headpiece, then you cannot roll NEED on a coffer drop for a headpiece; only GREED. Which is a fine system on the surface, but it is not perfect. Ultimately, it will not prevent players from not rolling NEED on pieces that they may not need for their main jobs:

1. A tank is not currently wearing the Savage headpiece, and does not need it for his tank BiS. However, he also plays healers, and the Savage headpiece is BiS for healers. By the tank NOT having the Savage tank headpiece equipped, they are still able to roll NEED on a Savage headpiece coffer for their healers under this system.
2. Players can simply equip non-BiS gear on their main job for the option to roll NEED on a BiS piece coffer for another job. This would be a very easy system to exploit this way, as they could just keep their i450 crafted items, equip them when running the content, and roll NEED when the loot drops.

The developers will not ever completely lock a player out of rolling on an item (they want this stuff to be accessible, so taking away access is out of the question); so you would have to compromise on the NEED/GREED system written above. At most, they could:

1. make a coffer Unique—so in places like E1S where 2 earring coffers can drop, players can only obtain 1 of the coffers as opposed to both of them (this is currently possible in this system because the coffers are not listed as Unique items). This would be fine; I think coffers should already be Unique anyways.
2. Prevent players from obtaining more than one piece of gear per floor—if the BRD wins the belt coffer, they cannot also win the ring coffer that dropped.

But even these have their issues and aren’t perfect.


I only stress how imperfect this system is because you are intent on making sure people who don’t “need” the gear cannot roll on it. They will still be able to with this system via very simple exploits that one cannot expect to be punishable via GMs. There is no perfect way to prevent people from rolling on whatever they want—and I don’t think that there should be.
Personally, I don’t think any one person can say “I need this more than you do” when it comes to a group of strangers. Statics are a bit different, where the group collectively decides on loot distribution. PUGs are basically free-for-all, short of running them under Lootmaster (which is an option—but it is incredibly unpopular for a variety of reasons).

Secondly could you please lower the cost of the 470 items from the vendor

This is also likely a system that won’t ever change—items will likely continue to cost as they always have, simply because this has been the Savage book system since Alexander (which was an improvement over the Coil loot system, where books didn’t exist at all). However, there are some compromises that they could make:

1. Allow higher tier books to be exchanged for lower tier books (e.g., trade in E3S books for E2S or E1S books—1-to-1 trade). I think this would be a fair thing to implement: E3S books are only good for pants and twines—if someone no longer needs pants/twines, but has to buy a lot of accessories, this allows them to put their “useless” books towards something more useful.
2. Reduce the cost of belts to 4 books instead of 6 books: I can’t argue about the system as a whole being changed, but I think it’s a bit fair to ask for belts to maybe also be 4 books instead of the 6 they currently cost.

Now I was almost certain there was a time where FENDING items dropped in Savage but then I thought I dreamed that up - I personally preferred that - I mean then it was only me and the other tank competing for FENDING items, and if the other tank had the items then I am certain he couldn't roll for them again

This was the old loot system where you basically got 2 random drops from the entire loot table of a floor. They changed it to address the complaints players had about loot dropping that no one needed (e.g., Casting gear dropping in a group that didn’t have a caster, as opposed to melee or ranged gear dropping instead).

The old system had just as many failings as the new system. Mathematically, the new system is better in terms of drops—the first floor actually gives you more pieces now compared to in the past (3 coffers versus 2 drops previously), and you aren’t stuck with never seeing a certain type of accessory for weeks on end because RNGesus is being a butt. You, unfortunately, have to deal with RNG coming from all players, not just a select few. That’s the trade-off on implementing a system that will always guarantee someone in the party loot that they could use versus a system where one had less competition IF the piece they needed actually dropped.


The only way for the old loot system to really work without those worthless pieces being an issue would be to do what I and Noitems suggested: configure a code to read which jobs are present in a party when they enter a Savage instance, and adjust loot tables according to that. Which would be a fine system initially—eventually, it would start to fail. You make a quip about how I “complained about gearing alts” when I discussed this as a possible solution—I made that point because you have to consider how the system will function as a whole. Not just how it will appease players in the beginning.

As a whole, this system would be good for gearing up main jobs in a party. It would be great for it, because it would eliminate worthless drops and provide only drops that could be useful. You would still have to deal with RNG in hoping that the piece of gear you actually need drops—that will never be eliminated—but parties will at least be guaranteed a drop that someone in that party can use versus one where no one would use it. On the other hand, when people move out of gearing their mains and seek to start gearing alt jobs, this system falls flat and makes it nigh impossible to gear them. They would essentially have to run the content on their alt jobs—which may or may not be feasible (e.g., someone who would like to gear their healers, but has never healed the tier before: they would have to find time to practice the tier and then queue into weekly clears later to earn alt gear, and this may not be practical for them depending on things like free time, personal skill, etc.).

Your specific focus is gearing your main right now—which is fine. But that isn’t the focus for other players, and it won’t be the permanent focus of a lot of players. Once their main is geared, they typically want to gear alts. So you have to consider how a system like this will impact them and impact the content itself. Ignoring what would happen down the line when people want to start gearing alts results in implementing a flawed system because you ignored the bigger picture.

I mean I find the system they use with the Primal EX's much nicer - It was/is a nicer system in my opinion, it made it easier for people with bad rolls to gear themselves and we were not competing with everyone. I really preferred that system. I do think a lot of people who have really bad luck did too.

If you’re meaning the token system, Savage has that: books. They allow you 1 book each week to save up for purchasing items that you may need if you do not get any drops. Are you wanting the system to be like Extremes where a book drops each clear?


As to specific responses to other things said:

Can you please point out EXACTLY where i said this - because I haven't - All I have said is the system for people who PUG needs to be better and suggested that it stop people who have the item equipped from rolling on the EXACT same item - thats not saying I dont want to compete with people.

yes I did did you see mine above where I said a number of times I am suggesting a solution for people who pug, so that they can gear themselves and not have to contend with everyone and all their possible 15 classes.

To me, this sounds like you are wanting a system where one has virtually no competition—which was the case for some in the previous loot system if they were lucky enough to get the piece they wanted to drop: only tanks and healers really had to roll against one another—a lot of party finders would lock physical ranged and caster spots to specifically eliminate competition on drops. To further reason why I drew such an inference, you do keep referencing the old system where only tanks had to roll against each other for Fending pieces.

I never said that you wanted a perfect system, for the record. I just stated that there is no perfect system for this content—every system they could implement has pros and cons, and I feel as if you aren’t looking at the entire picture for them (see above where I talked about the issue with alt gearing in the system where only gear dropped for jobs present in a specific party).

Is BiS not an answer ??? do you not know what the BiS is - it was said like back on page 1 I have 100% already made this clear.

Actually, your opening post never said BiS for the headpiece:

now I am almost certain (like 90%) I saw a bard roll on the belt from E1S and had the 470 belt equipped Im also almost certain the same bard rolled for the head piece on E2S and again had the 470 head piece equipped

You said you were “almost certain” (so not even 100%—this seemed to have changed later) that they had the i470 headpiece, of which I’ve already explained there are two: Augmented Deepshadow and Edengate. You still haven’t clarified which this was—you only continue to say “BiS”, which you only said later on in the thread, not initially. While I do know what the Aiming BiS is, you haven’t been as specific as you probably think you have been, which is why I kept asking about it. I already conceded on the belt—which you brought up again in the post my last post responded to. Anyways, this is the last I’m going to say about this tangent.

and I have said I personally think some of your solutions would work - like the one you suggested about the system reading the party make up - I think thats a good solution - but then you complained about gearing alts, I said a number of times I am talking about people who are gearing their main - not their alts - and using pugs to do so and how I personally think they should be given priority over someone who already has the item they are rolling for.

I addressed why I made I made the complaint about alt gearing in this post already, so I won’t reiterate on that.

I will, however, say this: while it is the polite thing to do to yield a coffer to someone who doesn’t have that piece for their main, you cannot force players to yield it. I don’t think any one person is more important than another in a static or a PUG group. You cannot dictate who “needs” an item more than someone else—even when it comes to main jobs versus alt jobs. I think it’s polite for people to yield, and I would prefer if people acted that way—but I cannot force them to do it.

I dont think I said for people who are planning on gearing their alts to join a static I think I said people who are in statics generally do gear their alts - never told anyone to go join a static - and wouldnt do that so sorry I know thats incorrect.

You said:

The solution to gearing your alt classes I think being in a static is a solution for this alone.

To me, that sounds as if you’re telling players that want to gear alts to join a static so that they can get gear for their alts as opposed to pugging it. Which is why I said what I said. Not everyone who gears alts are in statics—a lot of players pug for their mains and their alts. And there’s nothing wrong with that. Forcing a priority system of mains > alts won’t work because, as I already stated, you cannot dictate who “needs” gear more than someone else. That’s just not something you have the authority to do.

I will add in this, since I didn’t earlier due to being on mobile and I really hate typing long posts on my phone: you mentioned players joining parties on alt jobs if they want to gear those jobs. I just want to repeat that this is not always feasible. Would you want a person who wants gear for their tank to join in on your weekly clear having never actually tanked the fights before? What if 3 people in your group are trying to get gear for casters? Are they all three supposed to join in on casters? What if the DNC wants gear for their healers, but there are already two healers in the party? Sometimes, “just join in on an alt” doesn’t always work.

Also no the old system didn't allow people to roll for their alts . . . so it would have been better . . . but it didn't read party make up so there was wasted drops I think possibly the OLD system with the solution you suggested reading the party make up would be the best solution. Also no its just you haven't listened to any thing I have said. . . and had an attitude

The old system was also configured in such a way that you may not even gear up your MAIN with drops—it wasn’t uncommon for people to not see their body piece drop or their pants drop, and have to spend books on it. Likewise with being unlucky with random weapon drops and not winning the random coffer (which was also new to the Omegascape raids—Alexander was just 2 weapons). This new system makes it to where someone will always walk away with gear that they “need”—be it for main or alt. Personally, I think the new system allows one to gear up faster compared to the old system.

The suggestion I made is not the best solution. I already pointed out how flawed it would be once people got past the initial, main-gearing stage. I won’t repeat it because this post is really long already (sorry, everyone else). If a system works for the first few weeks, and then doesn’t work for the rest of the time a tier is active, it’s not a good solution. You cannot lock yourself into the mindset of “gearing mains is the most important”.

Also, I only got a little snippy with you because you were, quite frankly, snippy with me first. My patience started to run thin with the post where you assumed I’m “perfectly fine” with taking gear away from other people. However, I apologize for the snippy comments I made towards you.

[HyoMinPark]

Thats fine feel free to, but remember I will responed you give your opinion and I will give mine. And my opinion is this The current system is not working, there are people gearing their 3rd 4th or even 5th alt classes and people still struggeling to gear their main classes let alone an alt, that is a FACT.

This is also not a problem. Just because you’ve had bad luck and haven’t geared your main doesn’t mean you should try to punish other players that have good luck, and try to force them to gear up slower. Bad rolls suck—I get it. But they happen to everyone. They aren’t really a reason to change a system—especially one that can work well if players took on the initiative to attempt to actually organize loot drops (yes, this can be done with PUGs).

EDIT: the rest of my response will have to come after I finish getting ready/eating breakfast. And when I’m not typing on a phone.