How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[lillucario]

Yeah, and by saying "We'd be happy with just more damage", would you care to guess the direction their future development is going to take?

Probably changing nothing if I'm being completely honest because if they were going to dynamically change tanks to be actual tanks they would have put in actual effort to do so with this expansion. Instead we're still left as Blue DPS and they seem content with it.

[BarretOblivion]

Yeah, and by saying "We'd be happy with just more damage", would you care to guess the direction their future development is going to take? They are going to keep the tanks contribution relative to DPS the same (though healers coming in as a dark horse is probably a bigger reason that "tank contribution has dropped").



It's literally in the line right before that.

They (The dev team) tuned (as in, boss health and relative tank contribution) around one tank (The tank holding the boss) being in tank stance (and thus having a 20% damage penalty).

But that was basically a requirement to do when at minimum item level for most fights and a requirement for ultimate. So what they are saying and how the game was balanced are 2 completely different things.

[Kabooa]

But that was basically a requirement to do when at minimum item level for most fights and a requirement for ultimate. So what they are saying and how the game was balanced are 2 completely different things.

The game's balanced pretty well right now, with the exception of the DPS role at the moment, though the variance there will depend on who you ask.

That's kind of the reason this pushback is here.

it isn't about game balance. it isn't about the tuning. It's not about how tanks play.

It's the leading digit on a third party program and the pretty rainbow bar graph on the third party site, and people who think that bar graph should look different.

[Bravely_Default]

If you think 2 dps should be able to do nearly as much damage as all the healers and tanks in an instance, all the power to you. You are going to see more content being run with 1 heal 1 tank as players find ways to cheese strat bosses (already possible with titania ex and E1S!)

[BarretOblivion]

The game's balanced pretty well right now, with the exception of the DPS role at the moment, though the variance there will depend on who you ask.

That's kind of the reason this pushback is here.

it isn't about game balance. it isn't about the tuning. It's not about how tanks play.

It's the leading digit on a third party program and the pretty rainbow bar graph on the third party site, and people who think that bar graph should look different.

Balanced... boy you need to go play tanks right now. Balanced doesn't matter when it doesn't feel impactful nor fun to play anymore. Have you played WAR? Its mind numbing to play, the same is said from DRKs about their 'changes'.

Mechanics? SE doesn't do tank mechanics well. They never have had engaging tank mechanics. Hell there are fights where litteraly my other tank has fallen asleep MTing because its so boring.
You want the Tank job class to officially die? Cause right now even though healers got 0 new classes they now outnumber tanks... again, after SE stated they want to incentize more tanks in the game... even after a new tank was added to the game.

Not only that but you are advocating for people to litteraly do the "skip soar or disban" all over again where groups are going to blantantly look for ways for a tank to solo tank and a healer to solo heal in the future.

"Lets make the OT completely irrelevant and just be there for a shoe horned in force tank swap or a requirement that its just there (cough) E2S (cough)."

[Kabooa]

Balanced... boy you need to go play tanks right now. Balanced doesn't matter when it doesn't feel impactful nor fun to play anymore. Have you played WAR? Its mind numbing to play, the same is said from DRKs about their 'changes'

"Lets make the OT completely irrelevant and just be there for a shoe horned in force tank swap or a requirement that its just there (cough) E2S (cough)."

And giving "1000 dps" fixes this, how?

Does it make Warrior less boring to play?

Does it change Dark Knight's gameplay loop?

See the problem? The problem is you're not fixing the problem.

And yeah. Game's pretty well balanced at the moment. Not perfectly, and the most glaring offensives to it aren't in the tank or healer role beyond one exception in each (Living Dead and Benediction), but beyond that glaring interaction, any tank pair and any healer pair are going to come out with similar end results.

[BarretOblivion]

And giving "1000 dps" fixes this, how?

Does it make Warrior less boring to play?

Does it change Dark Knight's gameplay loop?

See the problem? The problem is you're not fixing the problem.

And yeah. Game's pretty well balanced at the moment. Not perfectly, and the most glaring offensives to it aren't in the tank or healer role beyond one exception in each (Living Dead and Benediction), but beyond that glaring interaction, any tank pair and any healer pair are going to come out with similar end results.

Need I point out that they don't add new skills or major reworks until expansions usually? Chances of them getting these changes in two years? Slim to none thus those two tanks aren't likely going to get there needed changes at all.
So lets at least give tanks a short term help. Bringing them up to at least keep the current % baised off the current lowest DPS is a fair request. Like seriously how is it not for a short term change?
Healers are starting to out DPS tanks... and do I need to remind you SE's goal was supposed to be that healers were supposed to be healing MORE this expansion than they were in SB???
So why are they getting close or surpassing tanks?
Oh yeah... because healers said "F that" on the forums and SE cut that *sh*t* out by buffing their healing potencies to where they can heal almost like they did in SB.

And now we are here. Why are tanks ignored? DPS get thier requested changes, Healers get thier requested changes, so now tanks are asking for a buff to keep them in within a healthy line and we got told "No we are just going to buff your defenses..." OUR DEFENSES???? The only tank that needs a buff to that is GNB because its the ONLY tank that needs an OT to use their skills to help with some of the fights. ONE TANK. ONE and its the one that's doing the most damage.

[Shurrikhan]

How much damage do you lose for a DPS taking 55k autos from Titan and healers being forced to baby sit that?

(Forgive the 4-day late reply, but this still seems an important point to discuss.)

As always, that would depend on the healer dps lost relative to the dps gained by replacing a tank with another dps. If, say, a DPS is doing 14.5k, a tank 8.5k, and a pure-dps healer 8k, the healer would have to be healing 3/4ths more of the time due to that swap for it to be worth taking a tank. For each of the questions, you could run simulations and point out "tanks are still a net gain". That might not be true of a second tank, but given how much of tank mitigation is passive it would pretty much always be true of the first, even in that above scenario whereby tankbusters are removed (+/- auto-attacks being ramped up to compensate, but still being unable to outright one-shot a DPS). The question is how much of a lead should tanks have. How niche should a single-tanking setup be? Or a solo-healer setup? How much inertia or hegemony, so to speak, should be given to the "traditional" 4/2/2 comp. When DPS still had some utility of note beyond mere rDPS, the best balance was probably a point where a non-traditional point should only be competitive with deliberate planning or when vastly overgeared. But now -- when apart from Mantra and a usually-still-worthless Ranged raid mitigation buff? I'm not sure.

[Shurrikhan]

Please tell me your joking... right?
Tanks had a much higher requirement to deal damage and even tank dance if needed back in SB. Now? Its easy to say our role requirements have decreased if anything. We make up only about 10% of the raid damage in total (down from 12-13%) we never stance dance because that is completely gone, we don't need to even touch our OT skills at all, and at most we need to just raid wide AoE mitigate as we did beforehand. The current fights have us doing maybe close to the same if not a bit less than we did back in Alphascape. Planning out cooldowns is only challenging in one fight of this entire raid tier while all others are braindead forward. Boss positioning? Only in 1 fight is it important. These aren't 'opinions' we have hard data that you close your eyes and scream "I see nor hear nothing". Tank contribution dropped as the group 2-3% of the entire fight. That is a FACT.

I think you two might be passing right by each other here. I side with your opinion here since I feel that the increased passive mitigation has simply lead to increased damage dealt by bosses, but we can't deny that their passive mitigation was increased. Relative tank damage is higher now that tank stance damage was before, despite gaining the benefits of tank stance permanently. More importantly, the gap in raid performance between taking a tank and not taking a tank, or trimming or keeping the second tank -- where not already forced by specific mechanics or dps-one-shotting tankbusters -- hasn't really changed.

That said, I hate how much that has taken away from what it means to be a tank, especially the degree of control that was available and the progression of play as confidence increased. Tank stances were a clunky and lackluster system, no doubt, but I don't like that nothing was given in their place. Rather than mostly being blue dps with some added reverse-raid CDs (use when damage is maximized against you, rather than for when damage is maximized against the enemies), we are now literally blue dps just with some reverse-raid CDs. And despite that being the limits of our contribution now, it feels like we contribute less within that newly narrowed role than we could before.

It's not enough for me to feel like I'm not contributing, or even annoy me except in principle, but I can see why others would take offense.

[Deceptus]

So lets at least give tanks a short term help. Bringing them up to at least keep the current % baised off the current lowest DPS is a fair request. Like seriously how is it not for a short term change?

Tanks don't need help. Groups are clearing content just fine as it is. All buffing tank damage would do is clear that content faster which doesn't solve any issue. This 1000 dps buff people keep spouting has no basis whatsoever other than "feels".

Healers are starting to out DPS tanks... and do I need to remind you SE's goal was supposed to be that healers were supposed to be healing MORE this expansion than they were in SB???

And healers are upset (to put it mildly) that they lost their damage due to a developer design decision that was failed to be realized. That's the fault of SE.

So why are they getting close or surpassing tanks?
Oh yeah... because healers said "F that" on the forums and SE cut that *sh*t* out by buffing their healing potencies to where they can heal almost like they did in SB.

Healers are only out DPSing tanks in extreme cases. That has already been proven so that excuse doesn't work anymore. Also, news flash, healers heal fine. We don't want more healing. We want more to do when there's healing downtime.

And now we are here. Why are tanks ignored? DPS get thier requested changes, Healers get thier requested changes, so now tanks are asking for a buff to keep them in within a healthy line and we got told "No we are just going to buff your defenses..." OUR DEFENSES???? The only tank that needs a buff to that is GNB because its the ONLY tank that needs an OT to use their skills to help with some of the fights. ONE TANK. ONE and its the one that's doing the most damage.

Tanks. . . Ignored. Did you really just say that about a role that got a brand new job?

Basically, if you're going to spout a bunch of BS and hyperbole, go elsewhere.