Adding Stances

[Saefinn]

If stance dancing returned to whm, I would drop whm real quick. We don’t need complexity, it’s fine where it’s at.

I feel like the majority of players on this site don’t want casuals playing this game. Let’s make the classes harder to play! Let’s add a rotation! Let’s add stance dancing! Let’s add some stupid bs where suddenly casual players can no longer play. But mah engagement to the game! I’m already engaged just trying to keep people alive. Maybe all you people who think the game is a snooze fest should go play a way harder game instead of making it unfriendly to noobs and casuals. SE made these changes for a reason, why go backwards?

On the contrary, the point was to try and bridge that gap, to see where compromise could be found. If you didn't want to stance dance, don't. If you are a casual player, I doubt you're doing content where the extra efficiency is needed.

The thing is, we started this game when healing wasn't a snooze fest. So the same argument could be reflected. If its too hard, play something easier. But it is not the kind of attitude I have, hence my mind has been on "how can we compromise?" As SE have two camps to satisfy.

But casual doesn't mean make it easier, but I recognise people have different skill levels and abilities and shouldn't necessarily be put down for it. But I for the most part play casually, if anything it affects me more because I'm not doing stuff like savage where the content is harder, but I don't have the time or commitment for a static to clear that kind of content.

[Lodi]

If stance dancing returned to whm, I would drop whm real quick. We don’t need complexity, it’s fine where it’s at.

I feel like the majority of players on this site don’t want casuals playing this game. Let’s make the classes harder to play! Let’s add a rotation! Let’s add stance dancing! Let’s add some stupid bs where suddenly casual players can no longer play. But mah engagement to the game! I’m already engaged just trying to keep people alive. Maybe all you people who think the game is a snooze fest should go play a way harder game instead of making it unfriendly to noobs and casuals. SE made these changes for a reason, why go backwards?

I see you enjoy using one button during 70% of your time, that's great for you! Because not everybody does. Friendly reminder that healers were a lot more complex until now, and people played them just fine.

There's a *small* (26 pages and counting) thread about healers on various levels who quit the job for the same reason: it's too easy and boring compared to the earlier expansions. No other role has that. Absolutely no other role has that.

Oh, and if you tell me "it's just a thread on the internet, it doesn't represent the healer community", look at the healer queues. They're instant pretty much all day. Tells you a lot about how loved the healer changes are, eh?

[AphraelAmarantha]

I am quite aware of how complex healers were when the game first started and heck, even before Stormblood, it's why Healer wasn't my first class, too complex, particularly with stance dancing. I only chose Black Mage at first because I wanted to play Rdm, but hooboy was black mage hard to handle. I did get to Red Mage eventually but even that was too hard, I could never beat Stone Sea or Sky with that class and I'm like, ok, dps just isn't my thing;, it's not clicking, even after getting advice from lots of people when I posted a vid of my "performance." I saw whm, took a stab at it and it was so much simpler to deal with since they removed cleric stance. I could actually play a class I enjoy! And then they revamped Lilies and wow was I having fun with the class, if a little stressed because Shadowbringer dungeons are pretty difficult at endgame (and lets not talk about Titania -_-).

But yeah, maybe you are all right. I am getting too old for video games and should just stick to old people games like candy crush. I no longer have the reflexes to deal with modern games. Makes me sad because I love the story this game has and I want to see it to its eventual end but that will probably never happen. I also don't think you can compromise on healer mechanics, or how the game is designed and targeted to. Maybe the game isn't for casuals at all but more like Black Desert where you can only be truly hardcore to progress enjoy this game without falling asleep and that's too bad because I want to experience more of the story with my character. Oh well, another game I guess I have to drop then....

[LariaKirin]

There's a *small* (26 pages and counting) thread about healers on various levels who quit the job for the same reason: it's too easy and boring compared to the earlier expansions. No other role has that. Absolutely no other role has that.

Portraying that thread as "26 pages and counting about healers who quit the job" is a lie. If you look at the first few pages you'll see that the majority of posts in at least the first few pages have NOT quit healer. I'm not going to check the entire thing, but it's absolutely not 26 pages of healers who quit healing.

You can make a case for giving healers more to do and you can argue about what is the best way to do it. But lying to make this case will not serve anyone.

Oh, and if you tell me "it's just a thread on the internet, it doesn't represent the healer community", look at the healer queues. They're instant pretty much all day. Tells you a lot about how loved the healer changes are, eh?

Using queues as a metric is a joke. It's the start of an expansion and everyone is leveling everything. If you're a healer main with three healers at lvl 80, are you queuing into anything other than expert roulette every day as a healer? I don't think so. Every queue other than expert is designed for alt jobs, not your main job.

The queues do not tell you what you want them to tell you. If you want to use queues to support your argument, then please prove the causation.

[Saefinn]

snip

Or, if stances were to make a return, again, you don't have to do it. And again, the idea is to try and offer something for both camps, because both exist in this game, rather than trying to screw one or the other. I think only a handful of players would say how you should be playing, but you're going to come across people with bad attitudes regardless.

One of the people in my linkshell is a woman in her 70's with arthiritis, she plays because she enjoys the game, it's stories, RP and the social aspect and she also plays with her daughter. I would never go in a dungeon expecting with her to be top DPS or a totally rad healer and we understand if mistakes are made. It's generally quite a chilled out experience when we do, because none of us take ourselves too seriously.

Back in the day, it was rare for me to see people berate healers that didn't stance dance.

[AmeliaVerves]

SE made these changes for a reason, why go backwards?

tbf the changes were made to reduce the skill gap between very good und (below)average players at the end of HW. But just as most ppl predicted, nothing changed and the gaps are just as big as they have always been. So it actually can be a simple conclusion to go back to old CS because removing it made no difference at all in the greater scheme.

I, personally, don't see it happening, bc most players wouldn't be able to handle old CS, but I'd welcome some softer sort of variation of HW CS coming back honestly.

[Irenia]

The only thing about old Cleric is that it introduced Savage-level punishment into content that isn't Savage-level.

I don't see old Cleric coming back unless old Tank Stances do, too.

[Verlyn]

While I didn't like Cleric Stance, and wouldn't be upset if it never came back, I'll acknowledge that it created a risk-reward paradigm that added a little spice to the healer's gameplay. Can you risk jumping into CS to throw out some spells? Can you change back fast enough? Do you need to wait and see? These are the sort of questions that make things more interesting. A little inconvenience can have value, when the game is about managing your time and resources.

That same paradigm can perhaps be created in a less punishing and more elegant way.

[Irenia]

While I didn't like Cleric Stance, and wouldn't be upset if it never came back, I'll acknowledge that it created a risk-reward paradigm that added a little spice to the healer's gameplay. Can you risk jumping into CS to throw out some spells? Can you change back fast enough? Do you need to wait and see? These are the sort of questions that make things more interesting. A little inconvenience can have value, when the game is about managing your time and resources.

That same paradigm can perhaps be created in a less punishing and more elegant way.

I definitely wouldn't mind something like this - a better designed CS.

I would like it baked into the entire job though - but as long as I don't feel like I'm risking a wipe for trying to be above average it should be fine

[Rivinhal]

If stance dancing returned to whm, I would drop whm real quick. We don’t need complexity, it’s fine where it’s at.

I feel like the majority of players on this site don’t want casuals playing this game. Let’s make the classes harder to play! Let’s add a rotation! Let’s add stance dancing! Let’s add some stupid bs where suddenly casual players can no longer play. But mah engagement to the game! I’m already engaged just trying to keep people alive. Maybe all you people who think the game is a snooze fest should go play a way harder game instead of making it unfriendly to noobs and casuals. SE made these changes for a reason, why go backwards?

"Why go backwards?"

This sort of destructive egalitarian mindset doesn't fix things. It only serves to alienate players and divide the community further.
Just ask WoW how this same class simplification worked out for them...

The reality is that it's okay that noobs and casual players don't play at a top-tier level. No one should expect them to. Heck, I'd consider myself a casual player...
But the complexity of play shouldn't be simplified and handicapped simply because some noobs and casuals (for whatever reason) aren't capable of performing optional mechanics intended to add to the job's complexity/depth.
If you're unable to play a job optimally, then you shouldn't expect the job to be handicapped, and for everyone else to be brought down to your level. You should expect to play sub-optimally.

And that's okay. It's okay to be a casual player. It's okay to not play perfect all the time. It's okay to not use every tool in your kit.

But that doesn't mean that I shouldn't be allowed access to those tools.