Adding Stances

[Rivinhal]

No it’s not okay. Just look at the tales of the duty finder thread. That thread speaks for itself. If you aren’t playing optimally, it’s a f-off or die situation, or that’s how I feel anyway. Hence why I say if they make whm complex like re-adding stance dancing, I will have to drop it because 1) I can’t handle stance dancing, it’s too hard meaning I’m not playing optimally and 2) it is no longer fun. Welp, since me and others like me who played whm for it’s simplicity just got alienated from adding “complexity” to the class which is antithetical to the reason why we started playing the class in the first place, it means we can no longer play the game nor experience the story with our characters and thus SE loses paying subscribers.

Frankly, this all sounds a bit selfish to me. "If I don't like it, and I can't play it optimally, it shouldn't exist!"

Why couldn't you "play the game or experience the story with your characters" exactly? You realize that if they re-added stance dancing, that you wouldn't have to do it, right?

Right now I see two sides:
With less complex classes we have a group of people who are clearly bored and even quitting.
With more optionally complex classes we would have people who suddenly "can't play optimally" and are upset about that for some reason, despite being casual players.
But only one of those situations is optional. I can't choose not be "not bored" anymore. You could choose to just ignore CS if it were re-implemented.

What baffles me most of all is that everything that people have proposed so far has been optional mechanics that high level players could use to take their play further.
If people were proposing baked-in redesigns that over-complicated the class at a base level and truly hampered your ability to play, I'd be right along side you decrying those propositions as a bad idea. But that's not what's happened.

I swear, I'm not even trying to be mean here. I just don't understand your concern.

[Saefinn]

No it’s not okay. Just look at the tales of the duty finder thread. That thread speaks for itself. If you aren’t playing optimally, it’s a f-off or die situation, or that’s how I feel anyway. Hence why I say if they make whm complex like re-adding stance dancing, I will have to drop it because 1) I can’t handle stance dancing, it’s too hard meaning I’m not playing optimally and 2) it is no longer fun.

I've come across WHM's who're really unhappy with the job right now and just aren't having fun anymore and some here have stated they are tired of complaining and not being listened to.

But what's wrong with some room for compromise? I mean, nobody here wants you to stop having fun either. If a Cleric Stance or some variation of (or another stance altogether) were introduced to keep the other population of players happy and the rest of the job remained as is (as my OP makes no suggestion of changing any of the job's core design what-so-ever, other that maybe 1 or 2 more DPS spells back), you could continue to play the job exactly as you do.

And those who actually have the attitude you're describing are in the minority. Like I said, when Cleric Stance was a thing and this was back when I was less of a casual player and raiding (back in ARR). If people didn't use Cleric Stance, not many cared. Though I know there's more DPS checks out there these days, but people who're most likely to say anything would be doing stuff like Extremes and Savage. And that's not really casual content anyway.

Having played the game for years, it's not often I witnessesed people take crap for playing suboptimally. Generally I say sod those with poor attitudes. And said people will pick people up for anything that's "sub optimal". I mean, we still have a similar situation with healers who don't DPS, most aren't going to care in most of the game's content, even if it's playing the job sub-optimally.

And taking Billy's point, I started out as a suboptimal AST who'd often forget their cards, or accidentally give it to the wrong people and I wasn't goot at healing with it either. And I still forget and I still misfire cards, hey, I'm human.

Heck, I mostly play in Nocturnal Sect on it, despite it being the least efficient sect with no benefit over Di beyond a "WHM/AST" or "AST/AST" setup, but it's the one I'm enjoying the most and it's not like I'm going into Savage with it. It's also kinda the what led me to my AST suggestion of not bringing Noct in line with Di because Noct is harder to play/maintain. If I Diurnal, I could probably DPS more and contribute better.

[Punslinger]

No it’s not okay. Just look at the tales of the duty finder thread. That thread speaks for itself. If you aren’t playing optimally, it’s a f-off or die situation, or that’s how I feel anyway. Hence why I say if they make whm complex like re-adding stance dancing, I will have to drop it because 1) I can’t handle stance dancing, it’s too hard meaning I’m not playing optimally and 2) it is no longer fun. Welp, since me and others like me who played whm for it’s simplicity just got alienated from adding “complexity” to the class which is antithetical to the reason why we started playing the class in the first place, it means we can no longer play the game nor experience the story with our characters and thus SE loses paying subscribers.

There's a fairly wide middle ground between SMN's carpal-tunnel-inducing rotation and WHM/SCH/AST's "press 1 until the boss is dead."

[Saefinn]

If stance dancing returned to whm, I would drop whm real quick. We don’t need complexity, it’s fine where it’s at.

I feel like the majority of players on this site don’t want casuals playing this game. Let’s make the classes harder to play! Let’s add a rotation! Let’s add stance dancing! Let’s add some stupid bs where suddenly casual players can no longer play. But mah engagement to the game! I’m already engaged just trying to keep people alive. Maybe all you people who think the game is a snooze fest should go play a way harder game instead of making it unfriendly to noobs and casuals. SE made these changes for a reason, why go backwards?

On the contrary, the point was to try and bridge that gap, to see where compromise could be found. If you didn't want to stance dance, don't. If you are a casual player, I doubt you're doing content where the extra efficiency is needed.

The thing is, we started this game when healing wasn't a snooze fest. So the same argument could be reflected. If its too hard, play something easier. But it is not the kind of attitude I have, hence my mind has been on "how can we compromise?" As SE have two camps to satisfy.

But casual doesn't mean make it easier, but I recognise people have different skill levels and abilities and shouldn't necessarily be put down for it. But I for the most part play casually, if anything it affects me more because I'm not doing stuff like savage where the content is harder, but I don't have the time or commitment for a static to clear that kind of content.

[AphraelAmarantha]

I am quite aware of how complex healers were when the game first started and heck, even before Stormblood, it's why Healer wasn't my first class, too complex, particularly with stance dancing. I only chose Black Mage at first because I wanted to play Rdm, but hooboy was black mage hard to handle. I did get to Red Mage eventually but even that was too hard, I could never beat Stone Sea or Sky with that class and I'm like, ok, dps just isn't my thing;, it's not clicking, even after getting advice from lots of people when I posted a vid of my "performance." I saw whm, took a stab at it and it was so much simpler to deal with since they removed cleric stance. I could actually play a class I enjoy! And then they revamped Lilies and wow was I having fun with the class, if a little stressed because Shadowbringer dungeons are pretty difficult at endgame (and lets not talk about Titania -_-).

But yeah, maybe you are all right. I am getting too old for video games and should just stick to old people games like candy crush. I no longer have the reflexes to deal with modern games. Makes me sad because I love the story this game has and I want to see it to its eventual end but that will probably never happen. I also don't think you can compromise on healer mechanics, or how the game is designed and targeted to. Maybe the game isn't for casuals at all but more like Black Desert where you can only be truly hardcore to progress enjoy this game without falling asleep and that's too bad because I want to experience more of the story with my character. Oh well, another game I guess I have to drop then....

[Saefinn]

snip

Or, if stances were to make a return, again, you don't have to do it. And again, the idea is to try and offer something for both camps, because both exist in this game, rather than trying to screw one or the other. I think only a handful of players would say how you should be playing, but you're going to come across people with bad attitudes regardless.

One of the people in my linkshell is a woman in her 70's with arthiritis, she plays because she enjoys the game, it's stories, RP and the social aspect and she also plays with her daughter. I would never go in a dungeon expecting with her to be top DPS or a totally rad healer and we understand if mistakes are made. It's generally quite a chilled out experience when we do, because none of us take ourselves too seriously.

Back in the day, it was rare for me to see people berate healers that didn't stance dance.

[Verlyn]

While I didn't like Cleric Stance, and wouldn't be upset if it never came back, I'll acknowledge that it created a risk-reward paradigm that added a little spice to the healer's gameplay. Can you risk jumping into CS to throw out some spells? Can you change back fast enough? Do you need to wait and see? These are the sort of questions that make things more interesting. A little inconvenience can have value, when the game is about managing your time and resources.

That same paradigm can perhaps be created in a less punishing and more elegant way.

[Irenia]

While I didn't like Cleric Stance, and wouldn't be upset if it never came back, I'll acknowledge that it created a risk-reward paradigm that added a little spice to the healer's gameplay. Can you risk jumping into CS to throw out some spells? Can you change back fast enough? Do you need to wait and see? These are the sort of questions that make things more interesting. A little inconvenience can have value, when the game is about managing your time and resources.

That same paradigm can perhaps be created in a less punishing and more elegant way.

I definitely wouldn't mind something like this - a better designed CS.

I would like it baked into the entire job though - but as long as I don't feel like I'm risking a wipe for trying to be above average it should be fine

[AphraelAmarantha]

Okay, I am going to try a very long winded way here to see if people can actually get what my problem is here because as usual, no one gets it; so I am going to change how I am presenting my argument.

The majority of people that play this game or at least here on the forums want to clear dungeons as fast as possible, correct?

[Billythepancake]

Okay, I am going to try a very long winded way here to see if people can actually get what my problem is here because as usual, no one gets it; so I am going to change how I am presenting my argument.

The majority of people that play this game or at least here on the forums want to clear dungeons as fast as possible, correct?

For the most part, I just want to do it at a decent pace, not super duper FAST GOTTA ZOOM, but so long as you're doing something, I find most people will not get upset at you. I never see anyone get upset at me when I queue up as a MCH and hold onto drill for 20 seconds.