How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[VeolE]

Changing the leading digit doesn't make tanks more or less important. You're still going to bring twoi.

And I never said I was excluded from the opinion making.

I will point out that every time this particular kind of thread comes up (It used to be Accessories, then it used to be Accessory scaling, at one point it was Tank Stance penalties) that no matter what change occurred, the overall placing of tanks didn't change.

Dude. What else do need for further proof? These people showed you evidence, the math, and everything. What else do you need to realize that tanks DID change? Do you not see that WHM is capable to out DPS the tanks? Does that not tell you or something???? Or maybe you're just that blunt and don't acknowledge it.

You're getting to the point were people gonna be done replying to your nonsense....

[Kabooa]

Dude. What else do need for further proof? These people showed you evidence, the math, and everything. What else do you need to realize that tanks DID change? Do you not see that WHM is capable to out DPS the tanks? Does that not tell you or something???? Or maybe you're just that blunt and don't acknowledge it.

You're getting to the point were people gonna be done replying to your nonsense....

It tells me that tanks have fragile egos, and that people are great at looking at graphs but not digging at actual data.

To summarize everything I've said so far.

A) If you want tanks to have more damage, the easiest and least jarring way to do this is enemy vulnerabilities. It's scaling contribution, thematically appropriate, and traditionally a tank boon and responsibility.
B) Ultimately, adjusting their damage up or down through potency boosts alone doesn't change anything about their relative contribution. Content health will be tuned up or down by a proportional amount to their theoretical output, even should A) come along.
C) The Omega data sets people reference are heavily skewed by padding. Of all the jobs, the Tanks and the Only-DPS dip the most once those pads are removed and added back to where they belong (The RDPS metric used now).

What difference does it make if the White Mage or any healer is capable of keeping up? To echo the OP in one of his replies, why does this -threaten- you? Why does this require such an immediate remedy?

Why shouldn't a healer be capable of keeping up with tanks or even surpassing them? For both of them, their very high second priority to their primary responsibilities is -damage-. Why should the healers be a significant amount behind tanks? Should they not be allowed to push their damage as much as they can?

You could argue that tanks primarily interact with enemies - Sure. But that doesn't mean their damage should be higher. It just means their interactions with enemies need to be more varied than a healers, who split their attention between party condition and enemy interaction, but in practice, anyone who has played healers in higher end content knows you're mostly rotating OGCDs and minimizing GCD healing as much as possible - AKA they're interacting with the enemy almost as much as tanks are.

[Deceptus]

Dude. What else do need for further proof? These people showed you evidence, the math, and everything. What else do you need to realize that tanks DID change? Do you not see that WHM is capable to out DPS the tanks? Does that not tell you or something???? Or maybe you're just that blunt and don't acknowledge it.

You're getting to the point were people gonna be done replying to your nonsense....

Is it possible that a WHM can out DPS a tank? Yes but only in fringe circumstances where the WHM is playing the absolute best they can, where they don't heal much at all.

And those fringe cases are generally accepted to be outliers and shouldn't be used to balance jobs. Because in average cases of healer vs tank damage, tank wins every time.

Again, if you're concerned about DPS numbers, play a DPS, the primary role assigned to do damage.

Average DPS numbers

^^ That box in the middle is what you need to be looking at, not the very far right edge of healers compared to the very far left edge of tanks.

However, ultimately it's up to SE and they've decided that they don't want tanks and healers to be large contributors to raid damage.

Do I agree with it? As a healer No. I'd love to have more complex things to do during downtime that just 2111111111111. Be grateful that's not your damage rotation from lvl 4 to lvl 80. Do I have to live with it? As a player playing their games, Yes.

[Nedkel]

Is it possible that a WHM can out DPS a tank? Yes but only in fringe circumstances where the WHM is playing the absolute best they can, where they don't heal much at all.
And those fringe cases are generally accepted to be outliers and shouldn't be used to balance jobs. Because in average cases of healer vs tank damage, tank wins every time.

Again, if you're concerned about DPS numbers, play a DPS, the primary role assigned to do damage.

Average DPS numbers
^^ That box in the middle is what you need to be looking at, not the very far right edge of healers compared to the very far left edge of tanks.
However, ultimately it's up to SE and they've decided that they don't want tanks and healers to be large contributors to raid damage.
Do I agree with it? As a healer No. I'd love to have more complex things to do during downtime that just 2111111111111. Be grateful that's not your damage rotation from lvl 4 to lvl 80. Do I have to live with it? As a player playing their games, Yes.

This is what blizzard said before they buffed tanks into DPS monsters who could literally solo dungeons (DK).

The amount of tanks in WoW was so pathetic because of this philosophy that was driven in blizzard "dps for dps, tank for tank duuh" people were unable to use DF because it took infinite amount of time to find anything nobody wanted to play useless meat that cant do anything.
FFXIV is not any different in this matter, its even worse.
Not buffing tanks making them funnier to play will hurt everyone in the long run, eot.

[Quor]

This is what blizzard said before they buffed tanks into DPS monsters who could literally solo dungeons (DK).

The amount of tanks in WoW was so pathetic because of this philosophy that was driven in blizzard "dps for dps, tank for tank duuh" people were unable to use DF because it took infinite amount of time to find anything nobody wanted to play useless meat that cant do anything.
FFXIV is not any different in this matter, its even worse.
Not buffing tanks making them funnier to play will hurt everyone in the long run, eot.

Yeah, I'm going to say that following in the design footsteps of Blizzard is not the right path to take. There's already enough homogenization between the tanks, we don't need to blur the lines between tanks and dps while we're at it. I'll reiterate what I said earlier; bring more engagement to tanks via tanky stuff. Group-wide mitigations and what not.

[Deceptus]

FFXIV is not any different in this matter, its even worse. .

Currently since 5.0 we've had a healer shortage, not a tank shortage. For a myriad of reasons. Tanks aren't the special ones they used to be.

Not buffing tanks making them funnier to play will hurt everyone in the long run, eot.

If Big Numbers are your definition of fun there's 10 jobs that fill that role perfectly.

Yeah, I'm going to say that following in the design footsteps of Blizzard is not the right path to take. There's already enough homogenization between the tanks, we don't need to blur the lines between tanks and dps while we're at it. I'll reiterate what I said earlier; bring more engagement to tanks via tanky stuff. Group-wide mitigations and what not.

Agree with this. Healers should be the ones with the Defensive buffs (Shell CD for Magic, Protect for Physical etc)

[Nedkel]

Currently since 5.0 we've had a healer shortage, not a tank shortage. For a myriad of reasons. Tanks aren't the special ones they used to be.

You are wrong, there are still more healers than tanks, the differences are not big as they used to but these are still there.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1801440431

If Big Numbers are your definition of fun there's 10 jobs that fill that role perfectly.

Im already playing one of those, but thanks for advice. xD
It feel so much better to see mobs in dungeons actually melting like butter, instead of pulling everything and waiting eternity for a pull to die because dps have no idea about aoe abilities at all.

But more so, it's the arbitrary nature of the nerf that upsets some people. And yes, it is a nerf. What did SE offer tanks in exchange for slicing their scaling? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. You simply do less damage now comparatively because they felt tanks contributed too much. That alone rubs a lot of people the wrong way.

Its worse than that.
They actually took everything that allowed tanks in SB to make epic and diverse plays.
Warrior no longer could sustain without healer, DRK no longer could pull entire dungeon without the need of healer.
All tanks now have aoe combo, damage windows, almost exact same deffensive cooldowns, even healing oGCD are similar to each other providing comparable healing. 2 of tanks have one weaponskill combo, 2 other have two.
All have range pull, 3 tanks has the exact same dash ability.
They made them almost exactly the same, no wonder why they are balanced if they play similar and share the exact same mechanics.
And they got nerfed to the point where you are much more dependent on team than you have used to. If you have bad dps or a healer in this expansion then you may as well play trust, this lack of contribution is really visible in dungeons.
At first i thought they just made dungeons more diffucult, but it turns out it was the tanks that were nerfed.

[Deceptus]

You are wrong, there are still more healers than tanks, the differences are not big as they used to but these are still there.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1801440431

Im already playing one of those, but thanks for advice. xD
It feel so much better to see mobs in dungeons actually melting like butter, instead of pulling everything and waiting eternity for a pull to die because dps have no idea about aoe abilities at all.

Problem with the numbers you presented:

1) Look at the main job selection and add them up, they total more than 100% so the numbers can't be trusted. Also, the differences between tanks and healers as a % base are within the margin of error, 24.7% for healers and 21.7% for tanks. Statistically, they are essentially the same.

2) Just because you say you play a job doesn't mean you do. I'm sure SE has much better metrics than a random survey. But anecdotally, I've seen healer in need almost constantly for roulettes since 5.0 dropped. PF's and statics can't fill their healer spots.

3) Just because you "main" a job doesn't mean you play it extensively. You yourself are an example of that. According to your portrait, you main a warrior, but you claim to play a DPS. I generally consider myself a SCH main but in dungeons I play a WHM for Holy and Thin Air or whatever gets me the fastest queue, often a PLD.