Tank Damage

[NessaWyvern]

Hmm, I kinda think that tank damage is a little bit more.
I did rathalos EX in SB with 4 tanks, and again in SHB with 4 tanks, and Rathy died a bit faster than before.

[BarretOblivion]

Tank damage kinda did get nerfed actually as much as people think it 'completely stayed the same'.
WAR lost 5% from deliverance on top of the passive crit buff it provided.
PLD lost 50 potency on every auto attack (remember roughly 30% of your damage is coming from auto attacks)
DRK lost DA on the soul eater combo which is was mostly where thier DA went when Carve/Bloodspiller couldn't be used.
Compared to SB each tank did about roughly 12% of a savage boss's hp over the course of an entire fight. This leads to about 24% in total done by the tanks.
In ShB that number has changed to 11% meaning tanks lost an overall contribution of damage to the boss of 2% of their role. DPS largely remained about the same with their contribution, but healers so far seem to have spiked to almost 10% each for boss contribution. This means the overall raid contribution of tanks got moved to healers which is odd because SE has said multiple times leading up to ShB with the changes to healers that they wanted healers to heal more. The contribution of tanks have gotten low enough for players that Healers are starting to get priority in many groups of gear over tanks because they have to contribute more to the raid group than a tank does.

Tank damage overall needs to get buffs to bring it back to about 12% of group contribution in damage so healers aren't forced to do more work than normal, because keep in mind, this is the first raid teir of the expansion, which means they normally nerf the raid HP of bosses by about 10% (there is an interview saying they made it 15% this tier) which means Tank importance of contributing in damage will be less impactful going further and more focus on other roles making it up.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Tank damage kinda did get nerfed actually as much as people think it 'completely stayed the same'.
WAR lost 5% from deliverance on top of the passive crit buff it provided.
PLD lost 50 potency on every auto attack (remember roughly 30% of your damage is coming from auto attacks)
DRK lost DA on the soul eater combo which is was mostly where thier DA went when Carve/Bloodspiller couldn't be used.
Compared to SB each tank did about roughly 12% of a savage boss's hp over the course of an entire fight. This leads to about 24% in total done by the tanks.

You miss all the flat potency increases the Tank's received?

The level 70 Paladin's Goring Blade combo went from 1070 (160+240+250+420) to 1485(200+300+390+595), Royal Authority went from 760 (160+240+360) to 1050 (200+300+550) Requiescat+Holy Spiritx5 went from 2630 (350+1.2*(380*5)) to 3175 (550+1.5*(350*5)). The Paladin got at 38% increase in damage from combos and a 20% increase for the Holy Spirit burst. Spirits Within and Circle of Scorn also received 23% and 18% potency increases. All of these changes more than make up for the loss of Sword Oath boosted Autoattacks and Shield Swipe.

The other tanks received similar boosts to make up for the various things that got removed.

[BarretOblivion]

You miss all the flat potency increases the Tank's received?

The level 70 Paladin's Goring Blade combo went from 1070 (160+240+250+420) to 1485(200+300+390+595), Royal Authority went from 760 (160+240+360) to 1050 (200+300+550) Requiescat+Holy Spiritx5 went from 2630 (350+1.2*(380*5)) to 3175 (550+1.5*(350*5)). The Paladin got at 38% increase in damage from combos and a 20% increase for the Holy Spirit burst. Spirits Within and Circle of Scorn also received 23% and 18% potency increases. All of these changes more than make up for the loss of Sword Oath boosted Autoattacks and Shield Swipe.

The other tanks received similar boosts to make up for the various things that got removed.

WAR did not get enough buffs which is why it’s dead last from being top. Not saying WAR wasn't problematic in SB after the rework, because it was.

Drk only got buffs for carve/bloodspliller while soul eater combo stayed the same.
If you were to scale SB to ShB in tank contribution to dps we are down about 1k from what we were beforehand to the lowest dps from a percentage standpoint. In SB we were about 67-68% of DPS damage using orange parses of a difference from the lowest DPS which was acceptable. Keep in mind that dnc is now the lowest dps and the entire physical ranged role will be buffed in 5.1 meaning the gap is just going to widen from what it currently is. Right now Tanks are only dealing about 60% at best when mechanics line up properly between GNB and DNC which means other tanks it widens slightly at about sub 60%. Remember, DNC and all physical ranged are going to get buffs next patch which will likely be about 800 dps or more which means the % difference between tanks and DPS are going to widen even further getting close to that 50% point. With no buffs tank contribution is going to drop further with a likely hood of healers passing tanks in group damage contribution because Tanks scaling on gear right now is fairly low. Meaning, tanks get gear last, tank interest drops further, and other roles will have to pick up the slack where tanks are lacking in. Take into account as well that means less people will be willing to tank anymore because thier group contribution will lessen. There are 2 tanks in a group, however generally the main focus is on one tank with the off tank kinda just... helping. The mechanic that shoehorn in a 2nd tank requirement are a bit... weak in many cases making the OT player feel... well rather useless towards the group besides group mitigation (which DPS also have).

"But OT now all have skills to help the MT!" Well not all OT skills are great and most of the fights you don't even need to touch your OT skill to help your fellow tank. The only tank I would argue is 'useful' with its OT skill is PLD simply because the fights where both tanks get targetted by a Tankbuster, Intevention is fantastic with sharing cooldowns. Besides that... meh, OT almost feel not necessary.

[Ultimatecalibur]

WAR did not get enough buffs which is why it’s dead last from being to.

No. War is slightly behind because their damage scales stupidly well with greater and greater amounts of Crit due to their auto Direct Crits. Come 5.55 War should have the highest dps even without any potency changes.

Drk only got bug for carve/bloodspliller and soul eater combo stayed the same.

Hard Slash went from 150 to 200, Syphon Slash went from 250 to 300 and Soul Eater went from 300 to 400. The damage from DA was normalized during SB: Each use of DA increased single target potency by the same amount save for CaS. All the DA potency buffs were turned into Edge of Darkness/Shadow's damage.

If you were to scale SB to ShB in tank contribution to dps we are down about 1k from what we were beforehand to the lowest dps. Keep in mind that dnc is now the lowest dps and the entire physical ranged role will be buffed in 5.1 meaning the gap is just going to widen. With no buffs tank contribution is going to drop further with a likely hood of healers passing tanks in group damage contribution. Meaning, tanks get gear last, tank interest drops further, and other roles will have to pick up the slack where tanks are lacking in.

It is not going to widen as you think it will. Tanks are getting the same amount of Strength and secondary stats from gear as Dragoon, Monk and Samurai are getting. The difference in damage comes from the differences in average potencies between the two roles. Tank should end up dealing the same relative amount of damage when compared to dps in 5.0 as they will in 5.55.

[Bravely_Default]

only reason numbers changed in stormblood is because they finally caved on putting some strength on accessories, and we still had to meld strength to get more out of it. With no sort of buff the percentage ratio is actually going to get worse for tanks because of skill speed scaling which will allow the dps potencies to come out faster.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

No. War is slightly behind because their damage scales stupidly well with greater and greater amounts of Crit due to their auto Direct Crits. Come 5.55 War should have the highest dps even without any potency changes.

No. CHR actually scales worse on WAR than the other tanks, insofar as the scaling growing at a lesser rate. Automatic critical hits mean that WAR is further ahead on the scaling curve, but it also means the scaling curve is flatter.

To put it simply, the other tanks are catching up to WAR when it comes to CHR scaling; it's not a case of WAR pulling further and further ahead. Come 5.55, WAR should be even further behind the other tanks, if nothing changes.

[BarretOblivion]

No. CHR actually scales worse on WAR than the other tanks, insofar as the scaling growing at a lesser rate. Automatic critical hits mean that WAR is further ahead on the scaling curve, but it also means the scaling curve is flatter.

To put it simply, the other tanks are catching up to WAR when it comes to CHR scaling; it's not a case of WAR pulling further and further ahead. Come 5.55, WAR should be even further behind the other tanks, if nothing changes.

OMG I think your right.... it actually makes sense what you are saying. Everyone has been saying WAR is going to get better as crit scales but I always have been thinking 'but so are all the tanks as thier crit % are going to up and their crits are going to hit as hard as WAR, plus they can meld DH while WAR doesn't.

[Kabooa]

No. CHR actually scales worse on WAR than the other tanks, insofar as the scaling growing at a lesser rate. Automatic critical hits mean that WAR is further ahead on the scaling curve, but it also means the scaling curve is flatter.

To put it simply, the other tanks are catching up to WAR when it comes to CHR scaling; it's not a case of WAR pulling further and further ahead. Come 5.55, WAR should be even further behind the other tanks, if nothing changes.

Can you link the math on this?

Every time it comes up it bothers me because at a surface level it doesn't make sense.

Auto critting means that section of your damage always gets the crit bonus. It greatly inflates the bonus you get, and a fair portion of Warriors damage is auto crit.

This effectively means a portion of Warrior's damage scales normally as the other tanks, but the other portion of it is -heavily inflated- because it automatically crits. There should be no point where other tanks approach Warrior's critical scaling, only baseline potency discrepancies that prevent it from being horribly stupid.

Edit: There should be no sane point where they approach critical scaling. We're talking like baseline 50-60% chance, and seeing as we're barely peaking into 25% this tier...

[Argyle_Darkheart]

To be clear, I am talking specifically about the growth rate of the scaling.

For an extreme example, let's compare a character with a native 100% critical hit chance (character A) to a normal character (character B).

A CHR stat of 2855 gives 20% critical hit chance and 55% critical hit damage.
At a baseline damage of 100, character A would have a final damage of 155 and character B would have a final damage of 111.

Now, let's increase the CHR stat to 3680, which gives 25% critical hit chance and 60% critical hit damage.
Character A would have a final damage of 160 and character B would have a final damage of 115.
In this example, character A gained 5 damage and character B gained 4 damage. For character A, a 5 damage increase is an increase of 3.226%. For character B, a 4 damage increase is an increase of 3.604%.

Now, let's take an absurd jump all the way to 7805 CHR, which gives 50% critical hit chance and 85% critical hit damage
Character A gains 25 damage for an increase of 16.129% and character B gains 27.5 damage for an increase of 23.913%.

Which character is scaling better?