Monk rework/dmg nerf idea.

[Shurrikhan]

Couple things here.
For starters, if missing positionals was as insignificant for a MNK as you make it out to be, people wouldn't give a damn about RoE. Those missed positionals add up very quickly the more they occur and with the majority of MNK's toolkit having positionals, you can and will miss positionals quite often if not for True North/RoE. While other jobs do get punished more for missing the few positionals they do have, that doesn't instantly mean that a MNK's missed positionals have less value to them, especially in the case of LFB. As for MNK's DPS matching that of BLM when MNK has utility, that's actually completely balanced and I fail to see why you bring it up as a negative thing. If utility isn't making up the gap between a Selfish DPS and a Support DPS or if the Selfish DPS doesn't do enough damage to justify bringing over the Support DPS, then the game isn't balanced. I mean, if you strip away all utility from MNK to make it a Selfish DPS again and adjusted its pDPS to compensate for the lack of utility, would matching the numbers of another selfish DPS be a problem? If that isn't a problem, then why is it problem with the utility? If MNK was reaching BLM BEFORE taking into account utility, then you'd have a point but this isn't the case at all so what exactly is the problem with MNK matching BLM's damage via utility?

People would also "give a damn" about, say, DRG suddenly no longer having Raiden Thrust depend on F&C/WT's positional success. DRG's last two GCDs per combo are worth 120 potency. A Yuki-averted Meikyo has at least 192 positional potency. I don't think either of those costs would just be silently dismissed if some new buff suddenly allowed those to be ignored. We are most definitely that potency-grubbing.

And you're conflating two very different points in time. That's like saying "nobody cares if we break the glass once it's broken, so why should it matter if we break the glass in the first place?" Monk was by far and away the most positionally dependent melee... UNTIL we got Riddle of Earth v2. My argument was not about 5.0 Monk. It was not about 4.x Monk. It was not about 3.x or 2.x Monk. It was about Monk now, where its loses only 20 potency per missed positional on all but one skill and has no positional requirements for two-thirds of the time. It may still be the most positionally dependent, but it's not by any huge margin anymore.

I meant only that a job that carries additional rDPS-utility (and survivability utility atop that, in this case) should never have equal pDPS to a job that has no such utility, as that would necessarily mean one will now have more rDPS (raid contribution given - raid contribution taken + personal contribution) than the other, which is exactly what defines imbalance (+/- other attractors like Verraise, though those quickly have little to no impact). If you mean that there's nothing wrong with MNK and BLM having the same rDPS, then I agree. I mentioned it only because pDPS seemed the point being pushed in the posts leading up to my reply, and I do not want to see their rDPS differ.

[Vendalwind]

People would also "give a damn" about, say, DRG suddenly no longer having Raiden Thrust depend on F&C/WT's positional success. DRG's last two GCDs per combo are worth 120 potency. A Yuki-averted Meikyo has at least 192 positional potency. I don't think either of those costs would just be silently dismissed if some new buff suddenly allowed those to be ignored. We are most definitely that potency-grubbing.

And you're conflating two very different points in time. That's like saying "nobody cares if we break the glass once it's broken, so why should it matter if we break the glass in the first place?" Monk was by far and away the most positionally dependent melee... UNTIL we got Riddle of Earth v2. My argument was not about 5.0 Monk. It was not about 4.x Monk. It was not about 3.x or 2.x Monk. It was about Monk now, where its loses only 20 potency per missed positional on all but one skill and has no positional requirements for two-thirds of the time. It may still be the most positionally dependent, but it's not by any huge margin anymore.

I meant only that a job that carries additional rDPS-utility (and survivability utility atop that, in this case) should never have equal pDPS to a job that has no such utility, as that would necessarily mean one will now have more rDPS (raid contribution given - raid contribution taken + personal contribution) than the other, which is exactly what defines imbalance (+/- other attractors like Verraise, though those quickly have little to no impact). If you mean that there's nothing wrong with MNK and BLM having the same rDPS, then I agree. I mentioned it only because pDPS seemed the point being pushed in the posts leading up to my reply, and I do not want to see their rDPS differ.

Wonderfully clear. The rDPS to pDPS differentiation causes so many communication issues these days.
I have a habit of trying to be absolutely explicit every single time i mention balance and dps.
But I still forget and fail to denote that sometimes.

[IruruCece]

YAY Time for my favorite game! Duplicating harassment!

Rather than pretending you're getting harassed, you should work on your actual Monk game instead. It might help you come up with better ideas than trying to make it play more like Ninja to appeal to you specifically. You literally main the job where people have been complaining about how all of its individual complexities are ultimately less than satisfying because of the lack of pay off, my dude. If you want to play Ninja so badly, stay one, and don't act surprised when people think that your big idea of making Monk "more like Ninja" is about as damaged as your keyboard must be after hammering out whatever the heck this was.

You "reviewed" patch notes? You "thought long and hard" about this? Good for you. You still turned out a bad proposal that ultimately just boils down to "nerf the damage, make Monks do more to accomplish less." That's crap design. That's Battlecruiser 3000AD level shenanigans. Rather than addressing Monk as Monk, you just listed a bunch of changes that would make YOU happy with the job.

And because apparently you don't even read your own posts:

Remember that I have played it still, and Did in fact main it at the beginning of this expac at my statics insistence since NIN was so craptastic.
And additionally know that I would have a vested interest in returning to the job.

This is where you told the thread that your static insisted you play Monk because NIN was so craptastic. Oops.

I think I'll stick around your thread, if it's all the same to you. I wanna see you stumble over your keyboard again trying to explain away

MONK MUST BE NERFED, or THE CONTENT OF THE GAME IS RESULTANTLY MADE EASIER BY ANY OTHER CHARACTERS BUFF.

because this is where you give your game away. You don't good ideas for the job, you think that nerfing monk specifically is the magic bullet to "save" content from becoming too easy, and people are supposed to take you seriously in a discussion about PvE balance in an MMO?

[Vendalwind]

Nice! good response time!

Rather than pretending you're getting harassed, you should work on your actual Monk game instead. It might help you come up with better ideas than trying to make it play more like Ninja to appeal to you specifically. You literally main the job where people have been complaining about how all of its individual complexities are ultimately less than satisfying because of the lack of pay off, my dude. If you want to play Ninja so badly, stay one, and don't act surprised when people think that your big idea of making Monk "more like Ninja" is about as damaged as your keyboard must be after hammering out whatever the heck this was.

OH so you still think my rework makes it more like NINJA huh? Hey
You aren't even qualified to mention NINJA since you DONT MAIN IT. according to your logic anyways.

AND FYI literally not a single one of my proposed changes brings it closer to what NIN currently is. NOT ONE.
If you want to argue it does PLEASE show me an example: go ahead!

*EDIT* I actually Found one. Technically you could compare the TK->Anatman combo i build into to DWD->Assassinate, but they differ in purpose and effect. The only similarity is that they are both used as a pair.

You "reviewed" patch notes? You "thought long and hard" about this? Good for you. You still turned out a bad proposal that ultimately just boils down to "nerf the damage, make Monks do more to accomplish less." That's crap design. That's Battlecruiser 3000AD level shenanigans. Rather than addressing Monk as Monk, you just listed a bunch of changes that would make YOU happy with the job.

Here you go again.
Baseless exaggerations without any purpose or logic other than to attempt to belittle. Do you really call that anything other than Harassment?
YOU have yet to actually argue with a single one of the changes I proposed on a dynamic level of cause and effect. Until you do that I cannot assume you have even given the rework real thought, because something in it triggered you.

I as it turns out likely have more experience playing MNK in endgame content than you do.

And because apparently you don't even read your own posts:



This is where you told the thread that your static insisted you play Monk because NIN was so craptastic. Oops.

This literally doesn't conflict with anything I said. Yeah I DONT LIKE MNK as it is. IF THIS WERE NOT TRUE i wouldn't be proposing a rework.
Oops!
Look at this fantastic(not) logic! You try to make out something I said as hypocritical, without even proving it hypocritical or connecting it to any additional quotes.
Your statements is devoid of logic. IE it is a a BASELESS ACCUSATION.

I think I'll stick around your thread, if it's all the same to you. I wanna see you stumble over your keyboard again trying to explain away

Again what does such statements accomplish? Look more baseless aggression for no reason!

because this is where you give your game away. You don't good ideas for the job,

Whats my game then huh? What game do you think im playing? What do you think Im trying to accomplish?
Im not trying to trick people. You are.
Also... nice english btw. Petty I know, but hey You are an A-hole so insulting you makes me happy.

you think that nerfing monk specifically is the magic bullet to "save" content from becoming too easy, and people are supposed to take you seriously in a discussion about PvE balance in an MMO?

This last statement is SO idiotic that I dont even want to respond to it.
Please read it to yourself a couple times. In the context of what would happen to literally ANY competitive PVAI game that just buffed every class and never nerfed.

If you don't actually logically make an actual argument for anything valid in your next post I will cease responding to you.

[Vendalwind]

If anyone wants to continue to discuss my proposed rework, or Silver Striders Please bring up the exact points in either my rework or his that you like, or dislike and explain why. maybe even offer a better alternative. I'm not set into my rework, there are a lot of things about it i was unsure about as far as minute specifics to the rework that I would love to hear more thoughts on. I really do want to discuss this, and Im even just open for silver-strider's as discussion I just really dislike it when people come in and effectively say "I hate this" without explaining why or what pieces of it conflict with their hopes for monks future.

[IruruCece]

I as it turns out likely have more experience playing MNK in endgame content than you do.

That's great, I'm glad that your experience has made you conclude that you'd rather play something else. So go play a different job, then.

Your rework adds complexity for the sake of it, changing the identity of the job to fit your own preferences, and then tacks an across the board damage nerf too. You completely fail to address the nature of what put the job into it's current state with the kit it has today in favor of ignoring years of how the job has played to make it play entirely different. Switching between Fists regularly, purposefully slowing ourselves down and speeding up again throughout the fight? None of that sounds appealing to me in the least.

Your proposal was flawed from the start because you were designing something you wanted to play yourself. I don't care what you want to play, and I think most Monk players would agree. I want to play Monk, not what you THINK Monk should be. You're forgetting that most Monk players do like a lot about what DOES work for the class currently, and what HAS worked for it in the past. There are things about the job that DO work really well, and I want to maintain that current flow. I don't want it to be braindead simple. I'd like it if they gave back some of our OGCDs. I think Riddle of Earth goes too far with ignoring positionals, hell, I'd be happy not having ANY ability to ignore positionals whatsoever. Because THOSE are the things that define Monk to me. Not the Fists, but the constant movement near the boss. Making sure I'm maximizing my uptime to the best of my ability by hitting those positionals every time. And being fast. That's Monk. Not dancing between different stances to unlock moves. Not forcing myself to slow down. We complained endlessly about having a slow imposed on us in the previous expansion! Why would I want a rework of the job where such a thing was expected of me?

I don't think the job is so broken that we need to add a level of complexity to it so you'll be happy. I fundamentally disagree with everything you proposed for the job, because the way Monk would play, based on that first post, would lack the flow that this job has had since ARR. For me, that sucks.

[Vendalwind]

That's great, I'm glad that your experience has made you conclude that you'd rather play something else. So go play a different job, then.

Your rework adds complexity for the sake of it, changing the identity of the job to fit your own preferences, and then tacks an across the board damage nerf too. You completely fail to address the nature of what put the job into it's current state with the kit it has today in favor of ignoring years of how the job has played to make it play entirely different. Switching between Fists regularly, purposefully slowing ourselves down and speeding up again throughout the fight? None of that sounds appealing to me in the least.

Your proposal was flawed from the start because you were designing something you wanted to play yourself. I don't care what you want to play, and I think most Monk players would agree. I want to play Monk, not what you THINK Monk should be. You're forgetting that most Monk players do like a lot about what DOES work for the class currently, and what HAS worked for it in the past. There are things about the job that DO work really well, and I want to maintain that current flow. I don't want it to be braindead simple. I'd like it if they gave back some of our OGCDs. I think Riddle of Earth goes too far with ignoring positionals, hell, I'd be happy not having ANY ability to ignore positionals whatsoever. Because THOSE are the things that define Monk to me. Not the Fists, but the constant movement near the boss. Making sure I'm maximizing my uptime to the best of my ability by hitting those positionals every time. And being fast. That's Monk. Not dancing between different stances to unlock moves. Not forcing myself to slow down. We complained endlessly about having a slow imposed on us in the previous expansion! Why would I want a rework of the job where such a thing was expected of me?

I don't think the job is so broken that we need to add a level of complexity to it so you'll be happy. I fundamentally disagree with everything you proposed for the job, because the way Monk would play, based on that first post, would lack the flow that this job has had since ARR. For me, that sucks.

Ill get to a few points here tomorrow as I need to Sleep.
But I actually enjoyed reading this post and now see better what your complaints are, and now actually know which parts of my rework likely are bothering you.
I'll address a few of them in the morning, and I have an adjustment for my version of Anatman/TK combo that might make you happier then. It was actually my original concept for the combo, but I changed it slightly so TK retained a slight sacrifice of GL. (effectively right now with my rework TK would put you at GL3 after its use.)
Do note tho that saying I "completely fail" is still a bit excessive. but that's because i didn't really discuss my reasonings and what the rotation would become, I just put down the changes and left it at that. Hopefully I can convince you tomorrow there are a few good things in this rework, but we will see.

[Vendalwind]

Alright! Im going to update my rework a bit at this point, with some of the input I've received.
So there is still some unnecessary sass in your post, but at least I now know a few of the things in the rework you disagree with, even tho i think you are overestimating the effect of some of the changes I make.
So to facilitate better understanding after some short response I'll walk you through what would actually change in the rotation right off because of my changes.
The shorthand is: Not much actually.

Your rework adds complexity for the sake of it, changing the identity of the job to fit your own preferences, and then tacks an across the board damage nerf too.

Yep the job is too simple now with the inclusion of riddle of earth. Sorry but it is. And MNKs damage is also OP. Sorry but it is. There are also buffs attached to my rework, but you perhaps didn't really think about them, and additionally it's identity WOULD NOT CHANGE via my rework. And nor really would the rotation too much as I just said and will explain. You would still never be more than single weaving while doing high speed standard GCDs, at least outside of the opener.

You completely fail to address the nature of what put the job into it's current state with the kit it has today in favor of ignoring years of how the job has played to make it play entirely different.

A rude little pointless anecdote above, that is also obviously untrue since a few people have in fact favored my rework changes over others. AND especially since some of my rework is an attempt to re-implement dead moves, (IE you know fix the historical mistakes that create the dead moves?)

Switching between Fists regularly, purposefully slowing ourselves down and speeding up again throughout the fight? None of that sounds appealing to me in the least.

This is the moment it becomes clear to me you didn't read my rework to full comprehension, AND this is also the moment you finally point out what you dislike about the rework directly. gonna come back to this line in a bit, but this line is the ONLY reason I chose to respond.

Your proposal was flawed from the start because you were designing something you wanted to play yourself.

Rude, False in reference to flawed, and of course I would design something I myself would want to play. You could you know. Help me refine it instead of being continually rude. that would have been productive.

I don't care what you want to play, and I think most Monk players would agree. I want to play Monk, not what you THINK Monk should be. You're forgetting that most Monk players do like a lot about what DOES work for the class currently, and what HAS worked for it in the past. There are things about the job that DO work really well, and I want to maintain that current flow. I don't want it to be braindead simple. I'd like it if they gave back some of our OGCDs. I think Riddle of Earth goes too far with ignoring positionals, hell, I'd be happy not having ANY ability to ignore positionals whatsoever.

Cool! A lot of what you say here I can work with. I think removing all positional ignoring abilities would be a bit extreme. Especially with the stance dancing that is necessary to perform the double true rotation right now.
And btw completely removing true north and earths rep[ly would in my opinion make the job more overtly difficult than my rework. Again I think you overestimate the complexity the rework would add.

Because THOSE are the things that define Monk to me. Not the Fists, but the constant movement near the boss. Making sure I'm maximizing my uptime to the best of my ability by hitting those positionals every time. And being fast. That's Monk. Not dancing between different stances to unlock moves. Not forcing myself to slow down. We complained endlessly about having a slow imposed on us in the previous expansion! Why would I want a rework of the job where such a thing was expected of me?
I don't think the job is so broken that we need to add a level of complexity to it so you'll be happy. I fundamentally disagree with everything you proposed for the job, because the way Monk would play, based on that first post, would lack the flow that this job has had since ARR. For me, that sucks.

Alright lets see if I can change your mind here a bit! Onto the next post! And hopefully in it you see that Im actually trying to address these exact interests you have in the produced rework idea. And know that my rework should NEVER force a player into GL0 like 4.0 TK did

[Vendalwind]

First: Here is the rework again quoted and tweaked a bit.
For Iruru I would assume you agree with my goals 2 and 3, but not 4 and 1 is that correct?

-Resurrect Tornado Kick from the dead. TK gives a 5 second buff window, during which if Anatman is used within that window Anatmans effect will be enhanced. Lock TK behind Fists of wind and GL4. TK still removes all GL stacks on use

-Anatman when used Immediatly increases GL by 1 and chakra by 1. If channeled for a long duration while in combat increases GL and Chakras further, 30 seconds for complete charge from 0. The immediate effect of Anatman if used when under TK's 5 second buff raises GL by 3 and chakra by 1.

-If Anatman is used out of combat it's cooldown is reduced to 5 seconds.

-Twin snakes buff lasts 1 second longer. This accommodates the 5% loss of speed during the burst phase, AND accommodates the mild slowdown from Tornado Kick, Anatman usage.

-Riddle of Fire again locked behind Fists of Fire. Fists of Fire becomes the dedicated burst phase mode. Leaving Fist of Fire early ends Riddle of Fire early

-I'm removing my changes to form shift, they were clearly un-popular.

-Mantra is now locked behind Fists of Earth, So is Riddle of Earth. Mantra enhanced to a team wide 20 second bloodbath from MNKs attacks +5% heals received. Now they can't be used as a negative balancing point because they inflict a dps tax upon use themselves.

-Fists of Earth is now a stance that can facilitate the recovery of a raid group after a healer dies, but at a significant dps loss for the duration it is sustained. Leaving Fist of Earth Early Ends Riddle of Earth and Mantra early.

-Brotherhood no longer opens chakras by chance on friendly weapon skill, becoming less team dependent. Now it just further boosts the rate of your own chakra buildup by 30% (ie 100% on crit)

-Nerf potency on many of the combo moves mildly. -10 on all but twin snakes. -20 to six sided. -20 to tornado kick. Keep leaden fist bonus at 300 tho. Hopefully thats enough, and not too big of a nerf. This nerf amount could be adjusted

I didn't discuss what would change rotation ally because of my rework, I wanted people to think through that themselves. So going to do a walkthrough of what it would effect.

The current MNK opener uses Fire Stance. This wouldn't change, you would just be in fire stance for longer and return to fire stance for 20 seconds out of 90. That time segment, is your brotherhood, PB burst phase with an extra 20% dmg at a loss of only 5% speed. So the opener would remain largely exactly the same, except anatman would be moved to prepull, and the shift to Fists of Wind would happen later.
Opener would be ->

Anatman(unchanneled) ->Meditate->Fists of Fire-> Form Shift X3 -> true north -> Shoulder Tackle -> Demolish ->Dragon Kick, weave POT -> Twin Snakes, weave Riddle of Fire(20second burst begins) -> Demolish, weave brotherhood -> Forbidden Chakra -> Bootshine, weave Perfect Balance (GL is already at 3 so move straight into Leaden burst -> Dragon Kick, weave Elixir Field ->Bootshine, weave shoulder tackle -> Dragon Kick -> Bootshine ->dragon kick ->Bootshine ->Snap Punch(Snap punch is moved to sustain GL mid PB)->Dragon kick->Bootshine,weave Forbidden Chakra (its guaranteed by this moment, but could have proc'ed earlier due to my brotherhood changes)->Twin Snakes, weave Fist of Wind-> Demolish (grants GL4)->Dragon Kick, weave Shoulder tackle
Opener complete. Player is now in riddle of wind with 4 GL and ALL play resumes as normal

*Changes to the rotation*
None to the basics of it. player can still choose to do the Double True rotation, or the standard Rotation depending on their ability to handle positional dancing.
Once every 60 seconds a TK->Anatman combo becomes available. Performing this combo works as follows:
GCD,weave TK->GCD (greased lightning absent), weave Anatman -> GCD (GL returns to level 3)

Optimally This would occur with Bootshine or Dragon kick as the first GCD, thus Twin snakes or True strike (the least powerful hitters) would be the GCD that loses GL bonus, Then after Anatman a finisher Demolish or Snap punch would be used to return IMMEDIATLY to GL4
But optimal may not always work. This is a big potency gain getting back the 430 oGCD Tornado kick with limited downsides.

Occasionally the TK-Anatman combo would have to be delayed for FoF phase. Since its unavailable in Fists of Fire there is no reason to try to align it with Fists of Fire's burst phase. Thus it adds very minimal complexity, just returns use of TK, and Perfect balance still maintains its burst ability to always deliver Leaden Fisted Bootshines.

Other changes: Riddle of earth weave is gone from the standard rotation, Positionals have to be maintained with more skill again.
Double true rotation should remain uneffected by the speed nerfs when in Fists of Wind because speed is only dropped for 1 GCD via the TK Anatman combo.
Six Sided Star and Meditation are still used for disconnects, and works as a safety net to maintain GL.
AOE rotation and Chakras are untouched, just augmented to be a bit more self reliant, and slightly more dependable during burst phase as crit hits during that burst phase will guarantee a chakra opening.

So you see my changes don't screw up the rotation really at all. They DO re-instate the slow down of FoF/RoF, but only for 20 seconds and at a very big 20% dmg+ net gain during that phase.

The Thread OP has since been edited to reflect the cumulative ideas here.

-Irura I am excited to see what you think of this after you read it all the way through. If you still hold the same dislike for it... fine. Im not frustrated with your distaste for the slows. Just please. Stop trying to pointlessly shut down discussion.

[SpeckledBurd]

That isn't a problem with my logic. My logic was sound, but did not examine or analyze ALL events ever in the history of the game. If all events had to be considered for logic to be sound then no logic in any field except for math would be sound.

ANYWAYS
That's definitely some analysis I hadn't considered, And you have some good points. It is absolutely true that the negligence towards Fists Of* suggests that it hasn't been integral to their current iteration of the job. And the Decoupling of riddles from fist stances further suggest that, but what I said about the original complete job still holds true, even if back in ARR fist stances weren't perfectly designed, they were absolutely a facet of the Monks original identity and development.

Using a single premise "The devs have kept the fist stances around since the beginning" to justify the conclusion that "The Fist Stances are part of Monk's identity" is an inductive fallacy (specifically a Hasty generalization) at the most generous or Cherry Picking at the worst. It's absolutely a logical error.

The "they never have been" part you have not disproven by any means. Absolutely right now they aren't really part of MNK identity, but to me at the beginning of the game they absolutely were, and I would posit that by very nature of being included in, and acquired by the job quests in ARR that they were very much part of Monks identity at least during ARR.

Regardless I've made it pretty clear my position is one of perspective and desire. I LIKE the Fist Of* moves and want them to become a more prominent part of Monk's kit, thus my proposals and hopes for the classes future.

How have they ever been a part of Monk's identity? Just because they implemented them during the conversion from 1.0 to ARR Doesn't automatically make them a part of the jobs identity, it just means it was part of the kit along with other skills that were ineffective and wasted space like Featherfoot, Haymaker, and One-Ilm Punch. In proper play their use has eternally been "Set it and forget it" except for during one brief moment of developer oversight. They don't factor into the gameplay and never have except for the previously mentioned period of developer oversight. They don't factor into the lore, and never have. And if they've never factored into gameplay outside of a bug and don't add anything to the class that removing them and adding a trait to the job would, then they're pure bloat plain and simple.

By the same logic of "The devs implemented it in 2.0 and it stuck around for multiple expansions" You'd be saying that One Ilm Punch was a part of Monk's identity in Stormblood, which it absolutely wasn't. It was button bloat, and so are the fist stances.

Monk's identity is that it's a job that deals low to moderate damage per hit that ultimately deals a large amount of damage in the long run because of its fast GCD. You're incentivized to an aggressive playstyle by Greased Lightning, a trademark buff that grants you a large haste and a sizeable damage buff provided you stay on the boss and keep attacking as you keep up other buffs with nonlinear combos that weave in and out of each other as you hit a high number of positionals.

That is what Monk is. That is what Monk has been since ARR. The reason people detested Riddle of Fire's slow was because it ran contrary to this. The Fist Stances have never factored into it and their continued existence on the job is a problem.

I disagree, which isn't to invalidate your statement, as I recognize you think would be a bad interaction. To me trade-offs with positive gain are a very valuable and interesting way to build a class. Losing GL4 for 20 seconds (with it 5% atk speed) to instead net gain 20% bonus dmg for those seconds is a very good trade off. Now this may be biased and here is admitting why: I enjoy NIN at the moment. And... well basically every part of NIN's kit right now is a trade off.

Using a Ninjutsu right now is a guaranteed minor clip into GCDs resulting in a lost GCD over time.
Using Suiton Loses you a Raiton, and some additional GCD clip, but gains you access to trick attack.
Using Meisui trades access to trick attack and loses a raiton OR a gcd if used in TCJ in favor of half a bhavacakra, or a better aligned bunshin. Literally a CRAZY trade off that requires over 20 seconds of prep to net gain only 30 potency should you be able to actually get the bhavacakra in. (what the hell Devs? this is the only trade off I hate right now)
Using TCJ loses you 2-4 GCDs, but is still very much a potency gain.
Delaying Mug loses you some Mug potency, but prevents Ninki overcapping from time to time, and honestly its hard to tell when and how long one can delay mug without serious loss. but It is still an interesting trade off tool that takes skill and fight knowledge to use perfectly.

My point being trade offs aren't inherently bad, but can sometimes make a class more dynamic and interesting. Right now MNK doesn't have to make any decisions with any amount of foresight. If you do the opener right it's pretty much just use everything in order, on cooldown, and react to disconnects or downtime appropriately. I want MNK to be more than that.

And it's obvious... that many people don't want MNK to be more than that. And that's okay.

Monk isn't Ninja. It's not a job about weaving oGCDs and it isn't a job about and frankly I don't think it should be and the gameplay you're describing for Ninja just sounds clunky and frustrating, and I think, considering how vicious the outcry against Riddle of Fire was for slowing Monk down during Stormblood, that that the Majority of Monk's would agree.