How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[ShadowNyx3]

This thread is a bit hard to follow but I think I'm seeing the OP's and supporter's points as being that they just want tanks to do a bit more damage so that they feel that the work they're doing is properly valued. I'm not going to comment on what aspects of tanking or healing feel valuable since I very rarely play these roles and do not have an informed opinion, though I am curious to hear opinions of others when framing the overarching question in a particular way:

Does this lack of value have anything to do with the inevitable power creep of the savage tier? Comparing the start of the tier as a fresh 450 to re-clearing things at 470, or at any point in between, do the tanks that want their damage to be higher feel less valuable at the higher item level or have you felt less valuable from the start? In other words, did these feelings of being undervalued come right away or have they come about after many weeks of growing stronger and not seeing the desired feedback?

I am also curious to see how people feel about that considering that an ultimate challenge is on its way, where there is no power creep shy of job changes in future expansions. Would tanks still feel undervalued dealing the damage that they currently do while being asked to perform their role in this highly tuned setting? Of course, there's no way to predict what this challenge may offer but being that it is supposed to be the most involved content presented to the players, I would say it's fair to assume that each role will be pushed to its limit.

I do ask these things as genuine questions because I find this to be an interesting topic.

[BarretOblivion]

Does this lack of value have anything to do with the inevitable power creep of the savage tier? Comparing the start of the tier as a fresh 450 to re-clearing things at 470, or at any point in between, do the tanks that want their damage to be higher feel less valuable at the higher item level or have you felt less valuable from the start? In other words, did these feelings of being undervalued come right away or have they come about after many weeks of growing stronger and not seeing the desired feedback?

Tanks feel right now as if we get the least benifit from raid drop than all other roles. Yes, I understand DPS get the most from higher item levels, but right now, Tanks gain the least when it comes to damage and only feel like we are gaining HP. Healers? It makes thier jobs easier getting gear on top of damage and its gotten to the point the arguements in some groups is now priority for drops is going to the HEALERS over the tanks now because don't need drops to do our jobs anymore.

Look, I want both jobs to start rolling for gear when its their turns after DPS, but when you feel 0 difference of an impact between getting 2 pieces of gear as a tank and having 0 then a problem arises. The scaling is also off with Tanks from SB to ShB as our damage should be about 1k higher than what it is currently to be scaled 1-1 to SB. Reason why we lost so much damage? Well every job lost something important to our damage. PLD/WAR lost our "DPS stances" and didn't get the potency compensation to rectify the removal. PLD loses 50 potency every auto attack we deal which adds up quite a bit when your damage in AAs is about 30% during an entire fight. WAR lost not only their 5% damage increase but also they lost their passive Crit buff depending on Beast Guage. DRK lost DA and while Carve & Spit and Bloodspiller got buffs to compensate, their souleater combo remained untouched, the thing we mostly used DA on when we couldn't Bloodspiller or Carve & Spit. If SE goes back and buffs all tanks potencies to compensate for what we lost in SB I don't think any tank would complain at all. The difference between the top Tank DPS (GNB) and lowest DPS (DNC) in a fight with 100% uptime is E2S and the value comes down to about 3-3.5k DPS which is about 70% of the damage a the lowest DPS deals. The issue? Physical ranged DPS are getting buffs (as they need them) likely bringing them up closer to all other jobs. So lets say ranged get about 800 overall DPS increase (I think that's a conservative number). That means Tanks will now be about 4k DPS behind the lowest damaging DPS. At this point the highest damaging tanks are going to be doing 64% of what a DNC will be doing which means the we are going to fall below the 2/3rds ratio of a DPS. Look, 1k DPS increase across the board for Tanks isn't going to 'break' tanks. DPS are still going to be as important.

[Kabooa]

I do ask these things as genuine questions because I find this to be an interesting topic.

They want more damage.

They're just trying to appeal from a different angle that doesn't make it seem like it's purely for no other reason than "I want it". Which isn't an invalid reason, it's just not a good one.

The amount of DPS jobs have gained after gearing from 440 to 470 (Though 440 was such a marginal gain, our baseline should be 450-470) has actually been pretty comparable.

While it's difficult to give some good examples (As strats have evolved and gear alone doesn't make up for the difference), we'll nonetheless try an example. The very first Titan kill (an enrage kill at that) has a majority of the DPS sitting around 11.9k, and the tanks at around 7200. The monk is at 12,700 and that number is fairly low for week 1s, as others have pushed 13,000+.

Fast forward to now, full i470, better uptime strats, and we have a Monk at 15,100, and Dancer at 13.700. Tanks at around 8500. Top Speed run currently up.

Monk increase: 18%
Not-"Top 5" increase: 15%
Tank increase: 18%

Catering can obviously change this a bit, but that's why we ranked by speedkill ("Best total DPS of the team") compared to individual rankings ("Dis guy gets the pad"). While one can't truly pad anymore with buffs, one can still give them preferential treatment for mechanics.

So here's the thing.

Another 1000 DPS doesn't help, for those that think there's a problem. As I already said - The next iLevel bump will put things back to where they are now, just because, equivalent scaling on different base values means the higher base value gains the most from the scaling.

The easiest, sanest way to give Tanks better damage contribution that also scales properly is to give them enemy vulnerabilities.

[BarretOblivion]

They want more damage.

They're just trying to appeal from a different angle that doesn't make it seem like it's purely for no other reason than "I want it". Which isn't an invalid reason, it's just not a good one.

The amount of DPS jobs have gained after gearing from 440 to 470 (Though 440 was such a marginal gain, our baseline should be 450-470) has actually been pretty comparable.

While it's difficult to give some good examples (As strats have evolved and gear alone doesn't make up for the difference), we'll nonetheless try an example. The very first Titan kill (an enrage kill at that) has a majority of the DPS sitting around 11.9k, and the tanks at around 7200. The monk is at 12,700 and that number is fairly low for week 1s, as others have pushed 13,000+.

Fast forward to now, full i470, better uptime strats, and we have a Monk at 15,100, and Dancer at 13.700. Tanks at around 8500. Top Speed run currently up.

Monk increase: 18%
Not-"Top 5" increase: 15%
Tank increase: 18%

Catering can obviously change this a bit, but that's why we ranked by speedkill ("Best total DPS of the team") compared to individual rankings ("Dis guy gets the pad"). While one can't truly pad anymore with buffs, one can still give them preferential treatment for mechanics.

So here's the thing.

Another 1000 DPS doesn't help, for those that think there's a problem. As I already said - The next iLevel bump will put things back to where they are now, just because, equivalent scaling on different base values means the higher base value gains the most from the scaling.

The easiest, sanest way to give Tanks better damage contribution that also scales properly is to give them enemy vulnerabilities.

Tanks aren't going to be sitting at 8500 in titan consistantly unless you get REAAALLY lucky on mechanic line ups. Tank damage varies incredibly baised on timings of mechanics and if they are chosen at certain points for said mechanics (as well as what titan picks for for go-kart). On average you will see Tanks maybe closer to 8k if even 1 mechanic screws them over (which it likely will). For tanks specifically on titan you have to use averages of their clears, not their best because the varience on Titan for tanks is EXTREME.

[LazyC]

They want more damage.

They're just trying to appeal from a different angle that doesn't make it seem like it's purely for no other reason than "I want it". Which isn't an invalid reason, it's just not a good one.

The amount of DPS jobs have gained after gearing from 440 to 470 (Though 440 was such a marginal gain, our baseline should be 450-470) has actually been pretty comparable.

While it's difficult to give some good examples (As strats have evolved and gear alone doesn't make up for the difference), we'll nonetheless try an example. The very first Titan kill (an enrage kill at that) has a majority of the DPS sitting around 11.9k, and the tanks at around 7200. The monk is at 12,700 and that number is fairly low for week 1s, as others have pushed 13,000+.

Fast forward to now, full i470, better uptime strats, and we have a Monk at 15,100, and Dancer at 13.700. Tanks at around 8500. Top Speed run currently up.

Monk increase: 18%
Not-"Top 5" increase: 15%
Tank increase: 18%

Catering can obviously change this a bit, but that's why we ranked by speedkill ("Best total DPS of the team") compared to individual rankings ("Dis guy gets the pad"). While one can't truly pad anymore with buffs, one can still give them preferential treatment for mechanics.

So here's the thing.

Another 1000 DPS doesn't help, for those that think there's a problem. As I already said - The next iLevel bump will put things back to where they are now, just because, equivalent scaling on different base values means the higher base value gains the most from the scaling.

The easiest, sanest way to give Tanks better damage contribution that also scales properly is to give them enemy vulnerabilities.

its good to see the scaling it at least lining up but did you see the post that shows how tanks used to do about 65% of a DPSs damage but now only does 55% for basically no reason? this happens every expansion too btw tanks damage gets gutted but we get nothing back in return. mechanics dont get harder, fight designs stay the same, in fact tanking is as easy as its ever been to the point where all that's left now is damage. i like the tank role, i enjoy the responsibilities that we have but those responsibilities havent changed in years, so all we get to watch as a growing metric is our damage which gets lower and lower every single expansion to the point where white mage is now riding our asses and frankly speaking it feels pretty bad.

Tanks should be bumped back up to doing about 70-75% of a DPS just like it was before because getting weaker for no reason feels pretty bad. Just my 2 cents.

[Nedkel]

They want more damage.

They're just trying to appeal from a different angle that doesn't make it seem like it's purely for no other reason than "I want it". Which isn't an invalid reason, it's just not a good one.

The amount of DPS jobs have gained after gearing from 440 to 470 (Though 440 was such a marginal gain, our baseline should be 450-470) has actually been pretty comparable.

What does scalling has anything to do with the overall contribution to the team dps?
Tanks are dealing less damage right now than what they used to in comparison to other classes and its a clear and confirmed fact, idk whats your point?
We dont deal enough damage, we are dealing less damage relative to the content we are doing.

It feel worse than in SB, yes "we want" our contribution back to the SB levels and not sit at 50% of dps dps output, because guess it or not there are people who play dungeons and these things are really important due to the team size. I do feel much weaker in this expansion than i was in SB. No longer i could "carry" team with a fellow healer if dps are bad, in SB i could have just burst through the dungeon dealing massive damage, in SHB forget about it especially in synced dungeons it will be a really long and painful slog if dps are single targeting or something like that...

What is wrong with me "wanting" something back? Will it hurt you?

There were several though, you guys just don't care since you have obsession with damage numbers.

Blame SE design choices, where dmg is most important thing in the game.