AST changes for 5.1+ feedback

[Ceasaria]

From the live letter :
"AST Adjustments
AST's Noct stance is deemed hard to use compare to SCH, and felt inferior so there are going to adjustment mainly on that"

Without a revamp, good luck then.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

Unfortunately the new card system and removed time spells is probably a balancing step for the healers, so it won't be changed till at the very least the end if the expansion leading into the next.

You know you could always just give WHM powerful utility instead of chipping away at the other healers until you break even...SE is so backwards.

[Sylvain]

So what makes Noct as harder?
I havnt played it much so I can't say.
It can't be the regular shield since, beside the crit factor, they function the same.
Celestial opposition brings more shield as an ogcd. Basically a deploy.

What I would see lacking is a proper sacred soil equivalent. Sure we have CI but it's long cooldown and potency nerf makes it strictly inferior in every regard. (not even talking about the '' not move. ' and silly radius)
The lack of constant autoheal (fairy) seems to be addressed with crossing sect. Perhaps a longer hot to imitate the fairy better?

Beside CI being really weak, what else is missing from Noct AST actually?

[Mesarthim]

So what makes Noct as harder?
I havnt played it much so I can't say.
It can't be the regular shield since, beside the crit factor, they function the same.
Celestial opposition brings more shield as an ogcd. Basically a deploy.

What I would see lacking is a proper sacred soil equivalent. Sure we have CI but it's long cooldown and potency nerf makes it strictly inferior in every regard. (not even talking about the '' not move. ' and silly radius)
The lack of constant autoheal (fairy) seems to be addressed with crossing sect. Perhaps a longer hot to imitate the fairy better?

Beside CI being really weak, what else is missing from Noct AST actually?

CU*

CI is the skill that acts like Benison if you're in diurnal.

[Billythepancake]

So what makes Noct as harder?
I havnt played it much so I can't say.
It can't be the regular shield since, beside the crit factor, they function the same.
Celestial opposition brings more shield as an ogcd. Basically a deploy.

What I would see lacking is a proper sacred soil equivalent. Sure we have CI but it's long cooldown and potency nerf makes it strictly inferior in every regard. (not even talking about the '' not move. ' and silly radius)
The lack of constant autoheal (fairy) seems to be addressed with crossing sect. Perhaps a longer hot to imitate the fairy better?

Beside CI being really weak, what else is missing from Noct AST actually?

AST is already mp inefficient and nocturnal makes the problem worse. When mitigation needs to be done AST doesn't have much outside of it's expensive shield heals and a couple of very lengthy CDs meanwhile SCH has several tools outside of succor that can help mitigate, some like sacred soil being on a very short cool down. SCH also has the tools to recover MP when it does need to use its big shield heals while AST has nothing outside of lucid dreaming. If I'm struggling with MP at the tail end of E4s as a SCH, I'd honestly hate to see how a shield AST would get by.

Also, let's not forget, aspected benefic costs twice as much mp in nocturnal as it does in diurnal, for some reason.

[tesni_g]

So what makes Noct as harder?
I havnt played it much so I can't say.
It can't be the regular shield since, beside the crit factor, they function the same.
Celestial opposition brings more shield as an ogcd. Basically a deploy.

What I would see lacking is a proper sacred soil equivalent. Sure we have CI but it's long cooldown and potency nerf makes it strictly inferior in every regard. (not even talking about the '' not move. ' and silly radius)
The lack of constant autoheal (fairy) seems to be addressed with crossing sect. Perhaps a longer hot to imitate the fairy better?

Beside CI being really weak, what else is missing from Noct AST actually?

This weekend I went into some page run/clear groups as Noct partly to see how bad it (still) was. My desire to play AST eclipsed my loathing of Nocturnal.

In my humble opinion, Noct AST loses too much without having a basic aoe hot. MP efficiency is a problem because of less tools to regain mana but also expensive MP casts to Aspected spells. That's not a problem when the AST has enough tools to use Aspected as more of a last resort, but right now it feels like we're missing something. If I just had one more cooldown at the ready--possibly by lowering the cooldown on Opposition and Horoscope, reworking Synastry into something powerful enough to warrant a two minute cooldown, and Unconscious to be buffed.

It takes a lot of work to heal/do cards and even then, I feel like it would have been "easier" for me to SCH instead. Less effort, more power.

[Sylvain]

AST is already mp inefficient and nocturnal makes the problem worse. When mitigation needs to be done AST doesn't have much outside of it's expensive shield heals and a couple of very lengthy CDs meanwhile SCH has several tools outside of succor that can help mitigate, some like sacred soil being on a very short cool down. SCH also has the tools to recover MP when it does need to use its big shield heals while AST has nothing outside of lucid dreaming. If I'm struggling with MP at the tail end of E4s as a SCH, I'd honestly hate to see how a shield AST would get by.

Also, let's not forget, aspected benefic costs twice as much mp in nocturnal as it does in diurnal, for some reason.

Im always confused with the english names x)
Anyway, well yeah AST is indeed inefficient mp wise but that could honestly easily be solved.
Either by nerfing mp cast or adding new Form of mp regen (like when using a card for instance)

as we both said, SCH has SS and AST only has CU.
Considering how bad CU currently is, they could nerf it to 30~45s and that would solve this issue? Ss would still be better but that would elevate most of the issue.

[Semirhage]

Also, let's not forget, aspected benefic costs twice as much mp in nocturnal as it does in diurnal, for some reason.

(Preface, the proportion could definitely change, and yes AST could use better MP tools)
That reason is: shields need to cost more than regens from a game design/kit balancing standpoint. MP is just the easiest opportunity cost to introduce. And the reason for that is because, in a vacuum, with considerations like potency or cost or cast time ignored/flattened out, shielding as a mechanic is an upside. Regen is a downside. Heal over time abilities are "good" because and only because they're more cost-effective than regular heals.

Take...well, Aspected Benefic for example. You have a straight heal potency normally. Now, parcel that same potency into a 15 second HoT, but keep everything else the same. The spell isn't really better. It's just moved its potency, with the added negative that you can't use it to spike heal. In order to make it an improvement, it'd need to be stronger, cheaper, or both. Now make half the potency a shield. The spell is stronger already without even touching potency or cost, because it now does something a regen can never do: artificially extend a health pool.

If Noct is numbers-weaker than Diurnal, you want to use Diu most of the time and Noct occasionally (if you need the shields to survive). If you make them equal in strength/opportunity cost, you'd never touch Diurnal again. We'll probably see tweaks happen within that paradigm, but I'd be *very* surprised if they evened the two seats out entirely.

Tl;dr making Noct AB cost more MP is the easiest (but not the only) way to make sure Noct has a disadvantage to Diurnal. Because shields are inherently mechanically superior to regens.

[Crushnight]

So what makes Noct as harder?
I havnt played it much so I can't say.
It can't be the regular shield since, beside the crit factor, they function the same.
Celestial opposition brings more shield as an ogcd. Basically a deploy.

What I would see lacking is a proper sacred soil equivalent. Sure we have CI but it's long cooldown and potency nerf makes it strictly inferior in every regard. (not even talking about the '' not move. ' and silly radius)
The lack of constant autoheal (fairy) seems to be addressed with crossing sect. Perhaps a longer hot to imitate the fairy better?

Beside CI being really weak, what else is missing from Noct AST actually?

Noct is weaker due to a few factors

1. Heal to mp ratio is worse on Nocturnal than Diurnal, when Ast has the worst mp economy of the 3 healers this does not help Noct's case in a long protracted fight with no down time (E2S) or progging situations.

2. Neutral Sect is far better on Diurnal than Nocturnal, because SE deemed Nocturnal to have an extra 500 mp cost on Aspected Benefic even with Neutral Sect active so Diurnal gets the same exact effect for 500 less mp which is dumb.

3. Most fights don't need Nocturnal shields, the way Duirnal is currently with Celestial Intersection and Neutral Sect, most fights do not need the constant shields from Nocturnal including some savage fights which is just so bad.

4. Duirnal allows more breathing room for other heals/Dps/cards than Nocturnal does, mob pulls especially big ones rip the Nocturnal shield like tissue paper and you are needing to apply more often, whereas the regen on Duirnal are only reapplied as it falls off freeing up gcds for other heals/dps/cards weaving.

[tesni_g]

While we're dogpiling on Nocturnal...

Nocturnal field is more expensive and we're likely to use it over and over again, especially since it's weak. Which I get why they've made the mana cost so insane--we're not supposed to use it that much. Other tools first, Aspected Helios last.

But our other tools need to be better, if that's the case. I think if we had enough abilities affected by Nocturnal Sect to mitigate, and we only had to use Aspected spells as a last resort, then Noct might feel fine.

Neutral Sect should, instead of smashing together sects, go super-sect so that Nocturnal Sect gets added mitigation and some MP mercy (geared to handle two mechanics back to back in a similar way that SCH would use Seraph) and Diurnal gives heal bomb stacks that detonate when players take damage (reactive/burst healing where a WHM might use Pleneary or Assize). I think if Neutral Sect offered high value heals to both sects we'd be in a much better place. The idea of a mid-fight sect change is a great one, and I want it in theory, but not while the rest of the kit remains a mess. We need a powerful specialist button instead of a lukewarm attempt to generalize.

Nocturnal is also singularly unforgiving to newer healers, who may not understand when and how to shield. SCH can more liberally apply shields so even if they are overhealing, they won't run OOM from an extra succor or three, and if they do, they still have options. Nocturnal doesn't get sect-related options until level 60.

I really want the dev team to tackle AST from this angle: What does Nocturnal need to make playing with WHM feel fun and engaging? How can Diurnal fill the reactive/burst that complements healing alongside SCH?