Thread: AST changes for 5.1+ feedback

Originally Posted by Billythepancake

AST is already mp inefficient and nocturnal makes the problem worse. When mitigation needs to be done AST doesn't have much outside of it's expensive shield heals and a couple of very lengthy CDs meanwhile SCH has several tools outside of succor that can help mitigate, some like sacred soil being on a very short cool down. SCH also has the tools to recover MP when it does need to use its big shield heals while AST has nothing outside of lucid dreaming. If I'm struggling with MP at the tail end of E4s as a SCH, I'd honestly hate to see how a shield AST would get by.

Also, let's not forget, aspected benefic costs twice as much mp in nocturnal as it does in diurnal, for some reason.

Im always confused with the english names x)
Anyway, well yeah AST is indeed inefficient mp wise but that could honestly easily be solved.
Either by nerfing mp cast or adding new Form of mp regen (like when using a card for instance)

as we both said, SCH has SS and AST only has CU.
Considering how bad CU currently is, they could nerf it to 30~45s and that would solve this issue? Ss would still be better but that would elevate most of the issue.

Originally Posted by Sylvain

Considering how bad CU currently is, they could nerf it to 30~45s and that would solve this issue? Ss would still be better but that would elevate most of the issue.

Um, the last thing we need is to have a more frequent ability which requires us to STOP all other heals and STOP all DPS and STOP all card draws and buffs --- while we stand there motionless for 10 seconds waiting for a bubble to pulse tiny heals (for those who stay in the bubble).

Collective Unconscious is BROKEN. By requiring us to stop everything else we're supposed to be doing, and stay in one spot (in a game with ever increasing move and doge mechanics), the healing portion of CU would need to be truly spectacular -- enough to offset the true cost of using it: zero direct healing and zero pDPS and zero buffing. So unless Square is willing to make that happen, there's no sense in asking to be able to cast it more often.

Originally Posted by Side-Eye

Um, the last thing we need is to have a more frequent ability which requires us to STOP all other heals and STOP all DPS and STOP all card draws and buffs --- while we stand there motionless for 10 seconds waiting for a bubble to pulse tiny heals (for those who stay in the bubble).

Collective Unconscious is BROKEN. By requiring us to stop everything else we're supposed to be doing, and stay in one spot (in a game with ever increasing move and doge mechanics), the healing portion of CU would need to be truly spectacular -- enough to offset the true cost of using it: zero direct healing and zero pDPS and zero buffing. So unless Square is willing to make that happen, there's no sense in asking to be able to cast it more often.

That is not how you use CU. You activate the bubble and then interrupt it immediately. The party will get a few seconds of the mitigation and the entire length of the regen. This is why 150 potency CU was so strong in Stormblood.

Originally Posted by LariaKirin

That is not how you use CU. You activate the bubble and then interrupt it immediately. The party will get a few seconds of the mitigation and the entire length of the regen. This is why 150 potency CU was so strong in Stormblood.

I agree with you that yes, that's optimal use of CU.

But the fact that it isn't an instant ability (like we use it), and instead suggests that channeling is possible for upwards of 10 seconds, and doesn't explicitly say on the tooltip that the hot and mitigation snapshot as a buff regardless of channeling time invested, this is bad design.

Especially since, if you have one or two players just outside your CU range, an AST might feel obligated to hold it for a GCD, long enough for stragglers to get inside. Often I can see the DPS near me but I overestimated my range to the tanks and I can't immediately see whether I hit them, so I check their buffs before I move. Often, missed players will try to jump inside of it, which only matters if I'm still channeling it.

So there are a lot of less-optimal reasons an AST might "hold" and channel for a GCD or two. It's not fun, it doesn't feel good, but I can see why it happens. And because we don't get to "see" the range of it, we can't place ourselves as well as the true ground effect abilities. The other ground effects have the added bonus of being able to enter them and exit them until the effect is over, while CU snapshots based on that invisible 5 yalm radius around you.

It's broken for a lot of reasons, and its channeled nature is part of it. It's not "necessary" to channel. Unless you or someone else make a mistake, and then you pay for it by doing nothing inside a pretty ball of light.

Originally Posted by Billythepancake

Also, let's not forget, aspected benefic costs twice as much mp in nocturnal as it does in diurnal, for some reason.

(Preface, the proportion could definitely change, and yes AST could use better MP tools)
That reason is: shields need to cost more than regens from a game design/kit balancing standpoint. MP is just the easiest opportunity cost to introduce. And the reason for that is because, in a vacuum, with considerations like potency or cost or cast time ignored/flattened out, shielding as a mechanic is an upside. Regen is a downside. Heal over time abilities are "good" because and only because they're more cost-effective than regular heals.

Take...well, Aspected Benefic for example. You have a straight heal potency normally. Now, parcel that same potency into a 15 second HoT, but keep everything else the same. The spell isn't really better. It's just moved its potency, with the added negative that you can't use it to spike heal. In order to make it an improvement, it'd need to be stronger, cheaper, or both. Now make half the potency a shield. The spell is stronger already without even touching potency or cost, because it now does something a regen can never do: artificially extend a health pool.

If Noct is numbers-weaker than Diurnal, you want to use Diu most of the time and Noct occasionally (if you need the shields to survive). If you make them equal in strength/opportunity cost, you'd never touch Diurnal again. We'll probably see tweaks happen within that paradigm, but I'd be *very* surprised if they evened the two seats out entirely.

Tl;dr making Noct AB cost more MP is the easiest (but not the only) way to make sure Noct has a disadvantage to Diurnal. Because shields are inherently mechanically superior to regens.

While we're dogpiling on Nocturnal...

Nocturnal field is more expensive and we're likely to use it over and over again, especially since it's weak. Which I get why they've made the mana cost so insane--we're not supposed to use it that much. Other tools first, Aspected Helios last.

But our other tools need to be better, if that's the case. I think if we had enough abilities affected by Nocturnal Sect to mitigate, and we only had to use Aspected spells as a last resort, then Noct might feel fine.

Neutral Sect should, instead of smashing together sects, go super-sect so that Nocturnal Sect gets added mitigation and some MP mercy (geared to handle two mechanics back to back in a similar way that SCH would use Seraph) and Diurnal gives heal bomb stacks that detonate when players take damage (reactive/burst healing where a WHM might use Pleneary or Assize). I think if Neutral Sect offered high value heals to both sects we'd be in a much better place. The idea of a mid-fight sect change is a great one, and I want it in theory, but not while the rest of the kit remains a mess. We need a powerful specialist button instead of a lukewarm attempt to generalize.

Nocturnal is also singularly unforgiving to newer healers, who may not understand when and how to shield. SCH can more liberally apply shields so even if they are overhealing, they won't run OOM from an extra succor or three, and if they do, they still have options. Nocturnal doesn't get sect-related options until level 60.

I really want the dev team to tackle AST from this angle: What does Nocturnal need to make playing with WHM feel fun and engaging? How can Diurnal fill the reactive/burst that complements healing alongside SCH?

Canceling CU immediately is not intuitive gameplay for a continuous channeled spell.

Perhaps à good change to CU would be to remove the channeling.
Since the optimal usage is to not channel it, beside niche situation, and that the channeling part confuses new AST, simply removing it would solve the issue.
Possibly, to prevent weird animation and make the whole noc effect lasting 5s more clear, they could make the bubble visual stay for 3~5s.

Additionally, adding an effect depending on the stance could further help solve the issue with Nov vs Diu.

Diu could have a better potency (possibly back to 150) and noc could have a shorter cd. Making it more akin to SS.