Tales from the Shadows

[LineageRazor]

On the topic of the Ascians having "failed" in the Dark Future timeline, I tend to think not. While we know that Ascians can make mistakes, it's pretty likely they'd err on the side of caution when it comes to the Source itself. Emet-Selch was aware of the properties of Black Rose, and seven times familiar with the amplification of devastation a Rejoining brings, and didn't seem even remotely worried. Not even a hint of, "Eh, we should be cautious in its deployment" or anything like that. And when he learned that the Crystal Exarch had come from such a Dark Future, he wasn't even REMOTELY interested in discovering WHY the guy had come back, just that he was able. He was completely confident that the Dark Future was one the Ascians didn't need to be worried about.

It's been my theory for a while now, that the sacrifice the Ascians wish to make of life on the Source to bring back their comrades can be fulfilled just by having an intact Lifestream. Actual plants, animals, and people aren't necessary to that goal at all, so long as their Aether is in the Lifestream - and even if Light-stilled Aether is unusable as a sacrifice (this is unclear - we know it's unusable for a Rejoining, but we don't know whether it's unusable for a sacrifice to Zodiark), plenty were dying from violence and starvation, rather than Black Rose, and would have wound up in the Lifestream instead.

In short, I think this was a one-time deal, and the writers have given themselves a lot of room to ensure that it stays a one-time deal.

Oh, I very much agree that it will probably be a one-time deal. The thing is, though, now that we know that it's possible, WHY is it a one-time deal? Especially for the Ascians? This is what makes it hard for me to suspend my disbelief. FFXIV is now a world where traveling to the past and altering history is something that's possible. It may be difficult, but that is irrelevant, especially when immortal beings are involved. Anything that can be one once can be done a second time. ANYTHING. One-shot components can be rebuilt. Lost technology can be rediscovered.

The writers don't seem to understand just what "immortal" really means. Immortal means that Elidibus could REBUILD the Crystal Tower AND Alexander AND Omega, by hand, out of Popsicle sticks and duct tape, and cobble them together into a new time machine, over a period of countless eons. He has the time! However unlikely an event might be, when you approach infinity the odds of it happening (or happening twice) approach 100%.

It would have been far better to keep the entire concept of being able to change the past an impossibility. They should have kept to the same time travel philosophy they used for Alexander: when you return to the past, the best you can do is participate to help bring about events that have already happened, with those events having an unchanged outcome.

[Iscah]

Oh, I very much agree that [time travel] will probably be a one-time deal. The thing is, though, now that we know that it's possible, WHY is it a one-time deal? Especially for the Ascians? This is what makes it hard for me to suspend my disbelief. FFXIV is now a world where traveling to the past and altering history is something that's possible. It may be difficult, but that is irrelevant, especially when immortal beings are involved. Anything that can be one once can be done a second time. ANYTHING. One-shot components can be rebuilt. Lost technology can be rediscovered.

Here's a curious thought I had earlier today - if the Ascians got their hands on a time machine, what would they actually do with it? And what would be the consequences for the present timeline?

I think it's possible it wouldn't change anything at all for us.

Consider the effects of the timeline alteration in Shadowbringers, assuming it is complete. Someone from the "undesired future" travels back in time to a point where it could be averted, and changes it. Their original timeline may still exist, unaffected by the alternate reality that has been created, unable to be erased without destroying the changes that led to the split in the first place.

So suppose one of the Ascians acquires a time machine. Where would they go? Straight back to Amaurot to prevent Hydaelyn's summoning. They succeed, and their original plans are carried out unopposed. All that was wrong has been undone, and they are at home in their beloved city once more.

And yet... the ability to do so relies on our timeline. If the 'dark future' remains in existence, then by the same logic the Ascians' "averted" Sundering remains in existence too.

We probably wouldn't even notice it happened.

[Alleo]

On the topic of the Ascians having "failed" in the Dark Future timeline, I tend to think not. While we know that Ascians can make mistakes, it's pretty likely they'd err on the side of caution when it comes to the Source itself. Emet-Selch was aware of the properties of Black Rose, and seven times familiar with the amplification of devastation a Rejoining brings, and didn't seem even remotely worried. Not even a hint of, "Eh, we should be cautious in its deployment" or anything like that. And when he learned that the Crystal Exarch had come from such a Dark Future, he wasn't even REMOTELY interested in discovering WHY the guy had come back, just that he was able. He was completely confident that the Dark Future was one the Ascians didn't need to be worried about.

Didnt he kinda wonder (at least in the german version) what would happen if Black Rose was powered up by the light? They are not perfect people and can make mistakes. I mean the crystal tower was probably something Emet helped building and even he did not understand its massive hidden power and something like Black rose seemingly did not exist before that.

Anyways having a weapon deployed that turns the soil and other things bad does not sound like such a good idea. Its already enough that the calamities changed the landscape that much, but turning something into a death place where even future generations cant built on? That sounds like a terrible idea, especially since they still wanted to use the source as their new home later.

And yet... the ability to do so relies on our timeline. If the 'dark future' remains in existence, then by the same logic the Ascians' "averted" Sundering remains in existence too.

We probably wouldn't even notice it happened.

You are right, if timelines continue to exist then them changing it would not matter to us. But I have honestly a big problem with the theory that the bad one still exists. First this means that a unlimited amount of timelines can exists because everyone can choose something different thus altering the timeline. Which makes my brain at least hurt and gives me the feeling like we are not worth much. Just one of the many timelines in game.

Emet seemingly thinks that changing the past will always change the current present and future and even Graha Tia believed that much, which is why he is surprised that he is still there. Of course this may have been the hint that multiple timelines will continue to exist but at the same time Graha Tia could simply be a paradox.

I do wonder if we will ever find out what is correct.

[Ilenya]

Didnt he kinda wonder (at least in the german version) what would happen if Black Rose was powered up by the light? They are not perfect people and can make mistakes. I mean the crystal tower was probably something Emet helped building and even he did not understand its massive hidden power and something like Black rose seemingly did not exist before that.

Black Rose existed at least before Dalamud fell, since Gaius had a hand in stopping it before. There's a series of side quests in...The Fringes? One of the Ala Mhigo zones, anyways... That goes into it. As for what Emet-Selch said, when I watched that again, I took that to be "Oh hey, this thing if forced with light could be our next Calamity!" more than anything.

Edit for time travel train of thought. I am in no way being completely serious about this idea, but what if, in addition to Hydaelyn creating the 13 shards when she Sundered Zodiark, she happened to create multiple timelines as well, and G'raha Tia's whole time travel adventure was a way to try and Rejoin the timelines. I'm not really sure where the theory would go, since obviously there's absolutely no proof that this could remotely be a thing. Just a random train of thought.

[Alleluia]

You are right, if timelines continue to exist then them changing it would not matter to us. But I have honestly a big problem with the theory that the bad one still exists. First this means that a unlimited amount of timelines can exists because everyone can choose something different thus altering the timeline. Which makes my brain at least hurt and gives me the feeling like we are not worth much. Just one of the many timelines in game.

I mean, I do think its a given that alternate timelines means infinite alternate timelines. For one thing, you can say that everyone's individual instance of the WoL is an example of an alternate timeline, hence why G'raha can pull 7 more of us in to help his WoL in that final battle with Hades. We all experience it cus Exarch!G'raha did it for each of us in our dimension where our character is the WoL.

But multiple timelines doesn't make us worth less than before. Our existence and success very much matter to those in our timeline.

[Anonymoose]

I do think its a given that alternate timelines means infinite alternate timelines.

You're probably right, but I find something deeply unsettling about the idea. We'd already played by one-timeline, four-dimensional rules with Alexander, so it feels weird already. But infinite multiverse timelines in fiction make me very nervous. (Especially in FFXIV, where we already had 14 diverging timelines.)

For starters, suddenly the setting is so much smaller, philosophically, which is usually a net loss. Our world is also significant for no reason other than that it is "ours". In a game that so highlights the personal sacrifices of the Warrior of Light for "everyone else", doesn't that feel a little weird? To "other" the "other everyone elses" like that? And then there's that it guarantees that everything we've ever faced still exists somewhere, and in a multiverse with ways to cross boundaries. Nothing is ever truly safe. Nothing is every truly over. It makes me anxious for the narrative, lol.

I'm hoping that it's a one-time, hail-mary, "shouldn't-even-have-been-possible" fluke of cosmic proportions due to the path the Warrior of Light cut through history. For an excuse to limit it to just these two timelines, I look to The Twinning. The dungeon name refers to a macle, when a second crystal grows up through a first using an inverse lattice. It's probably just be a clever reference to, "Because the other branch of history was deleted, there's two Syrcus Towers, now!" ... but what if it referred to the origin "crystal" being the doomed history with an "inverse" timeline growing through it as a result of our actions?

/LalafellinPanicEmotes

[LineageRazor]

But infinite multiverse timelines in fiction make me very nervous.

Where's FFXI's Atomos when we need him??? He kept things so tidy.

[Alleo]

I mean, I do think its a given that alternate timelines means infinite alternate timelines. For one thing, you can say that everyone's individual instance of the WoL is an example of an alternate timeline, hence why G'raha can pull 7 more of us in to help his WoL in that final battle with Hades. We all experience it cus Exarch!G'raha did it for each of us in our dimension where our character is the WoL.

But multiple timelines doesn't make us worth less than before. Our existence and success very much matter to those in our timeline.

I guess I just dislike it when stories go that way. We could have had a simple: Change the past and thus change the future with Graha being a paradox that can only somehow exist thanks to the crystal tower. (And imo this is still not off the table as a possibility)

Different timelines in a universe that is already split..can they touch each other? Would it be possible to have one timeline where the Ascians won and Zodiark by destroying the whole plane of current existance could collaps everything? (Could our character visit another timeline and just simply snatch Haurchefant out of it for greedy personal reasons? :'))

In the end if these different timelines exist then I feel happy and bad for the bad future..on one hand they can continue to exist...on the other hand they had done all this to change their future (Graha believed that he would cease to be so he believed that the bad future wont simply happen) and now they would sit there after generations of hard work, in a dying world and nothing changes...making them believe that it was a failed mission..

[Iscah]

I mean, I do think its a given that alternate timelines means infinite alternate timelines.

I guess I just dislike it when stories go that way. We could have had a simple: Change the past and thus change the future with Graha being a paradox that can only somehow exist thanks to the crystal tower. (And imo this is still not off the table as a possibility)

"Could have had"? That is what we have, except with the possibility that the old timeline split off rather than ceased to exist.

It does not imply that it "is a given that alternate timelines means infinite multiple timelines". I don't think there's evidence for that in this story at all.

As I wrote earlier, how it is described - and taken in combination with information from Alexander - implies that there is ONE split in the timeline created under extraordinary circumstances where a time traveler interfered with the past of their origin timepoint, making it impossible for events to lead back to their original time.

ie. If G'raha simply traveled back in time but didn't change anything, only watched it happen, he would witness the Eighth Calamity and eventually see his younger self released from the tower and prepare to travel back in time. There would only be one stable (but dying) timeline.

Instead he has prevented the Calamity that happened in his original timeline, making it impossible to see those same events play out. He has "changed tracks" and is now on a different path that will not lead to the timeline he originated from. This (I believe) is the one time that the timeline splits as a result of his actions, forcing both timelines to exist because they are both part of 'his story'. Once that single split has occurred, there won't be another one because there is no pre-established future for him to contradict from this point onwards.

The exact way he describes the plan to change time (in his conversation with Urianger) is a to create a "crossroads" - one deliberate point where we can take one path or the other.


Also interesting: the bit about the Namazu implying that - assuming we can trust Gyoshin's visions and Seigetsu's interpretation - he might be able to receive visions from the good future and not just the bad one, though perhaps only prior to "reaching the crossroads" and going down the other path.

(Could our character visit another timeline and just simply snatch Haurchefant out of it for greedy personal reasons? :'))

From my take on it: no, you can't.

You can't just "visit another timeline" and do this for the satisfaction of knowing he survives somewhere - you would travel back in time to that point, rescue him right in front of your very confused younger self... and you've split the timeline, because that is definitely not how you personally saw the event play out last time.

So now you're on a different path of history to the one you arrived from - can you return to the "present"? Or would you travel forward in time to realise you're still in that altered timeline where the other version of you - the one that saw you rescue Haurchefant - is the Warrior of Light doing all the Warrior-of-Lighty things you did. Meanwhile, you're stuck (and your 'home timeline' is minus a WoL) until the Ironworks manage to go an extra step in figuring out how to cross not only time and dimensions but also timelines. So good luck with that.