Tales from the Shadows

[Alleo]

Well I would be happy if this is only a one time deal (but its still kinda bad for that other timeline since they would never know that they succeeded) but we just cant be sure. If a split can somehow happen who is to say that it did not already happen? We only know of this one but I do fear that this could lead to more.

And if someone from the bad future can see events from our path, doesnt that show that it is in some way connected? And who is to say that a god-like being like Zodiark could then not have the power to travel between that? We are talking about something that was able to make a whole planet alive again and who rewrote the rules of reality. So even just that one timeline existing could already be dangerous because we simply wont know what happens there and they are at least one more step nearer to release Zodiark.

(The part with Haurchefant was meant as a joke)

[Iscah]

Well I would be happy if this is only a one time deal (but its still kinda bad for that other timeline since they would never know that they succeeded)

I didn't address this but last night because I wanted to give it more thought, but I've realised there is no circumstance in which the people from the other timeline would be aware that the past had been successfully changed.

Their options are:

Timeline is erased: The world essentially ceases to exist once G'raha departs. Unless there's some kind of artistic "slow unraveling" of reality, they will not exist to realise that their non-existence indicates a successful timeline change.

Timeline continues: Much like G'raha at the end of Shadowbringers, their anticipated lack-of-existence fails to occur, and they're left asking "well, what now?"

Left to theorise over this new piece of information about how time works, they may reach the conclusion that they can never be certain that their plan worked - but they did what they could, and continue to hope that it succeeded.

And if someone from the bad future can see events from our path, doesnt that show that it is in some way connected?

That's not how I was meaning it, actually. I took it as a sign that rather than there being one "original timeline" and one "altered timeline" that only comes into existence once we create it, both exist as equal possible futures if you are looking into (or receiving messages from) the future at a point before the timeline splits.

Gyoshin's vision was during the Namazu questline in 4.3, prior to the point where G'raha starts trying to summon us in 4.4. That means that at that point, when he's having visions of a "future that could be", the good future is already an option.

Maybe a good way of visualising it is if the timeline is a tunnel that we're walking through. By changing the timeline, we dug a second tunnel and now there's a fork in the path. Once you reach that fork, you have to go one way or the other and can only see that one path ahead of you - but for someone who hasn't reached that point yet, they can look ahead and see down both paths at once.

(I'm not sure if this adds anything to the theorising or just confuses people, but it makes sense in my head. The 'new' timeline is just as real a future as the one that was 'always there'.)

(The part with Haurchefant was meant as a joke)

Oh well. It gave me an opportunity to explain my logic. Hope it made sense.

[Quor]

Well I would be happy if this is only a one time deal (but its still kinda bad for that other timeline since they would never know that they succeeded) but we just cant be sure. If a split can somehow happen who is to say that it did not already happen? We only know of this one but I do fear that this could lead to more.

For what it's worth, remember what we learned from the Alex raids. Alexander used his prodigious powers to consider all possible timelines and came to the conclusion that the only timeline that did not result in the end of the world was when Alex secreted himself away in his little pocket dimension so there would be no risk of his power being used and bringing about the world's destruction. Part of that vision was that the only successful timeline was muddled in such a way that Alex only knew that there was a possibility that the world would survive, and that said possibility would only manifest in the timeline in which we, the WoL, defeated Alexander and continued to do what we had been doing. I think this "muddling" was Alex seeing the timeline split that came about when the Ironworks sent CT and G'raha back in time to the First. My point here being that the primal of time itself saw only a single diverging point in all the infinite futures that were considered, which lends a lot of credence to the idea that this was a one-time deal. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the future we are responsible for creating at least some of the conditions that eventually allow for events of ShB to unfold in the future, essentially wrapping all this up into another stable time loop.

[Iscah]

I think this "muddling" was Alex seeing the timeline split that came about when the Ironworks sent CT and G'raha back in time to the First. My point here being that the primal of time itself saw only a single diverging point in all the infinite futures that were considered, which lends a lot of credence to the idea that this was a one-time deal.

It definitely adds up, although Dayan was talking about Alexander's predictions like it's a computer running mathematical calculation of possibilities, rather than actually seeing the future, which shouldn't allow for discovering "unexpected" variables... unless it's good enough to predict everything up to the time travel invention and where they would go with it.

Even before all this, it seemed like Alexander needed more omniscience than a computer should have to make those predictions... will need to ask about it at the next lore Q&A opportunity, I think.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the future we are responsible for creating at least some of the conditions that eventually allow for events of ShB to unfold in the future, essentially wrapping all this up into another stable time loop.

I'm not sure what you're picturing here.

The whole point of the time-travel plot was ensuring that we couldn't have a stable time loop, because that would lead straight back into the Eighth Calamity and the exact dark future that G'raha was trying to prevent from happening.

(If he'd failed his mission and couldn't save us or prevent the Calamity, that would result in a stable time loop - his actions are part of the overall timeline, even though he didn't successfully change anything.)

The events of Shadowbringers seem designed to "drive a wedge into the loop" and force us to take a different path from the natural flow of time, by making it impossible for circumstances to lead to the events he knows as history.

[Quor]

I'm not sure what you're picturing here.

The whole point of the time-travel plot was ensuring that we couldn't have a stable time loop, because that would lead straight back into the Eighth Calamity and the exact dark future that G'raha was trying to prevent from happening.

(If he'd failed his mission and couldn't save us or prevent the Calamity, that would result in a stable time loop - his actions are part of the overall timeline, even though he didn't successfully change anything.)

The events of Shadowbringers seem designed to "drive a wedge into the loop" and force us to take a different path from the natural flow of time, by making it impossible for circumstances to lead to the events he knows as history.

I'm not saying it happened for sure, more that there is a lot of unknowns that could end up being filled in with something. A lot of time passed between the 8th Calamity and when CT got sent back in time to the First, which from a writing perspective leaves room for adding all sorts of stuff in as (or if) the plot demands.

[YianKutku]

I'm kind of torn between a bit of eye-rolling at "of course that's why he's called Hades" and a nod of acknowledgement that if the writers were going to tie his name with some meaningful lore, this was probably the quickest way to do so.

[RicaRuin]

This short story was all I could've asked for. I love it.

However, it makes me question whether Emet-Selch truly holds the title 'the Architect'. I never found a source for that to begin with...

[Elladie]

This short story was all I could've asked for. I love it.

However, it makes me question whether Emet-Selch truly holds the title 'the Architect'. I never found a source for that to begin with...

Sound like Hythlodaeus was the Architect perhaps?

Loved the story. This is my favourite so far, especially the snippets at the end that explained so much about Hades and about Varis. If Solus' son hadn't died, how much might have changed .....

[MrThinker]

This short story was all I could've asked for. I love it.

However, it makes me question whether Emet-Selch truly holds the title 'the Architect'. I never found a source for that to begin with...

I believe it was simply a misnomer on our behalf due to reasons, but yes, it is never stated that he was Architect in the game, and it appears that instead it was Hythlodaeus. Also they really teasing our original self being close friends with Hades.

[ExKage]

I believe it was simply a misnomer on our behalf due to reasons, but yes, it is never stated that he was Architect in the game, and it appears that instead it was Hythlodaeus. Also they really teasing our original self being close friends with Hades.

Let me ask then, from where did you think that Architect is a role, capital A? If we do in fact take it from a seated title (Words of Lahabrea) then isn't the case that Hythlodaeus is not it as Hythlodaeus refuses to take the seat/role?

Emet-Selch is mentioned as an "architect", lower case emphasis but it's not the same moments as they are called "speaker" and "emissary". Emet-Selch may not be Architect, but Hythlodaeus is not it as they refused to be a part of the Convocation.

I've only read the new story once so there was probably much that I overlooked but, if the WoL's original self was already a part of the convocation (assuming we're right and they were), wouldn't they already know about Hades appointment to the position? Rather than having to be told so by Hades or learning of it through rumour?

The story is only that Emet-Selch was newly seated. We don't have any sort of indication of the timeline. It could be that the friend is part of the Convocation but not involved in the appointment or in my opinion it's more likely that the ancient!WoL was not appointed until later. That the Final End for Amaurot is far off in time.