I know how to make living dead better while still retaining it's flavor.

[MariaArvana]

You can't really say it's a nerf, in some cases yes, it would perform better now but there are other cases where it would perform better after my proposal. And in those cases now where it performs better it's still a massive black hole for resources, yeah you can bene it, but that's precisely my point, you have to save your bene for it, otherwise it's a pain in the ass to heal and even bigger resource waster. We are not trying to make it perfect here, just better and getting rid of the huge resource wasting component. I have a drk in my static, you know what I don't particularly like? Having to save bene for ld every fight we decide to use it, if I do accidentally use it for some other fuck up then my god me and my co-healer have to waste so much stuff on it.

When an ability that could previously ignore 9ss worth of fatal damage (factoring in latency for the bene press) can suddenly only ignore potentially 3-4s (depending on circumstance), it is a direct nerf, straight up.
Rather than nerf the invuln part of it, buff the part that makes you have to sink resources into it. I also have a DRK in my static, and my group's ultimate strats would be butchered with your idea. (Even our E4S strat, where we use LD to cover all three stonecrusher hits + megalith in the final phase due to the sheer OPness that is LD's duration.)

Like I said, buff it so the DRK receives 2x as much healing during walking dead from all sources and the downside much more reasonable. It'll be much easier for solo healers to get rid of, practically trivial for dual-healers to dispel, and everyone wins.

[Samsta]

When an ability that could previously ignore 9ss worth of fatal damage (factoring in latency for the bene press) can suddenly only ignore potentially 3-4s (depending on circumstance), it is a direct nerf, straight up.

No it is not, now it's better for shorter high damage windows like titan triple tankbusters. Worse for extremely long high damage parts and better for shorter ones, it is even better for normal double tankbusters since auto-attacks afterwards would heal you. It's really only worse for situations where the full 15-20 seconds of invuln is required and let's be real there aren't that many of those.

[MariaArvana]

No it is not, now it's better for shorter high damage windows like titan triple tankbusters. Worse for extremely long high damage parts and better for shorter ones, it is even better for normal double tankbusters since auto-attacks afterwards would heal you. It's really only worse for situations where the full 15-20 seconds of invuln is required and let's be real there aren't that many of those.

We'd have to agree to disagree. Nerfing theoretical durations is a very bad move when Holmgang and Bolide are already incapable of performing the same feats as Hallowed & LD can due to durations alone, You essentially gut LD's full usefulness to make it more selectively useful, when its easily fixed by targetting the actual weak point of the ability with a more rational, objective buff all around. When all three of the other Immunities let you survive and absorb as much fatal damage as possible within their durations, making one where absorbing that fatal damage is an active detriment to the intended effect of the ability is a very odd thought process.

Also funnily enough, if your DRK died to the first hit on stonecrusher, then your new LD wouldn't save them either where the old one would. Just saying. (dead (WD) -> healed -> dead)

[Samsta]

We'd have to agree to disagree. Nerfing theoretical durations is a very bad move when Holmgang and Bolide are already incapable of performing the same feats as Hallowed & LD can due to durations alone, You essentially gut LD's full usefulness to make it more selectively useful, when its easily fixed by targetting the actual weak point of the ability with a more rational, objective buff all around. When all three of the other Immunities let you survive and absorb as much fatal damage as possible within their durations, making one where absorbing that fatal damage is an active detriment to the intended effect of the ability is a very odd thought process.

Also funnily enough, if your DRK died to the first hit on stonecrusher, then your new LD wouldn't save them either where the old one would. Just saying. (dead (WD) -> healed -> dead)

Yeah it would make it different by not letting it absorb as much damage as possible for it's entire duration, but it would essentially turn it to hallowed ground in some situations where no healer resources are needed to bring the tank back from the brink unlike holmgang and bolide. It's ok if you think it's worse but calling it a direct nerf is just lying, that would mean it would be similar as it is now but worse, when in fact it's very different and whether it's better on not is completely subjective.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Yeah it would make it different by not letting it absorb as much damage as possible for it's entire duration, but it would essentially turn it to hallowed ground in some situations where no healer resources are needed to bring the tank back from the brink unlike holmgang and bolide. It's ok if you think it's worse but calling it a direct nerf is just lying, that would mean it would be similar as it is now but worse, when in fact it's very different and whether it's better on not is completely subjective.

To be fair, it is a direct nerf if it's duration has been hindered as Maria states, if the damage that killed you and for the 10second duration of Walking Dead converted ALL damage into heals, then it would be fine but would need a 6 minute recast minimim if not 7minutes.

[Samsta]

To be fair, it is a direct nerf if it's duration has been hindered as Maria states, if the damage that killed you and for the 10second duration of Walking Dead converted ALL damage into heals, then it would be fine but would need a 6 minute recast minimim if not 7minutes.

No, stop misusing the word, it's not a direct nerf since it's completely different. Tell me in how many current savage encounters you would actually need that full duration of ld? Right, none. And now think in how many the proposed one would actually be better? Right, in pretty much all of them. Immunities are extremely rarely used for anything other than tankbusters that last like 5 seconds, whether you can immune some autoattacks after that is irrelevant if you still have to heal drk to full wasting resources like hell. In E4S for example the proposed one would be godlike for both tankbusters since earthen anguish will kill you if you don't use any cooldowns and megalith would heal you up. Stop looking at the duration, it's irrelevant in 95% of cases.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

No, stop misusing the word, it's not a direct nerf since it's completely different. Tell me in how many current savage encounters you would actually need that full duration of ld? Right, none. And now think in how many the proposed one would actually be better? Right, in pretty much all of them. Immunities are extremely rarely used for anything other than tankbusters that last like 5 seconds, whether you can immune some autoattacks after that is irrelevant if you still have to heal drk to full wasting resources like hell. In E4S for example the proposed one would be godlike for both tankbusters since earthen anguish will kill you if you don't use any cooldowns and megalith would heal you up. Stop looking at the duration, it's irrelevant in 95% of cases.

Actually, for Stonecrusher, you would be dead on the third hit 9 times outta 10 without the extended duration of 10seconds, because LD is popped, no healer will want to use any heals before the first hit if they're gonna top you up in Walking Dead. Secondly in current WD, if you have a AST/SCH comp, after stonecrusher, you would need all 10seconds to soak the damage, and get the DRK topped to full again, so yes your proposed WD would be a DIRECT NERF. Also worth pointing out, current Eden is the baby level tier, while difficulty will increase next tier and the tier after, where invulns will be used more often. So basing your argument off of one tier is a pretty bad way to assess a skill.

[Samsta]

Actually, for Stonecrusher, you would be dead on the third hit 9 times outta 10 without the extended duration of 10seconds, because LD is popped, no healer will want to use any heals before the first hit

I would use heals to top the drk off before the first stonecrusher much more gladly than having to heal him afterwards. It's much more easier to top him off before that first hit when he has only taken a couple of autoattacks compared to having to heal 100% of his hp afterwards. I don't know why that would be a problem but wasting stuff to heal 100% of his hp isn't.

Secondly in current WD, if you have a AST/SCH comp, after stonecrusher, you would need all 10seconds to soak the damage, and get the DRK topped to full again, so yes your proposed WD would be a DIRECT NERF.

I don't even understand what you mean by this, maybe I did not make myself clear. The duration of living dead and walking dead would stay the same, you would only receive extra healing from all the damage, so walking dead would end sooner in some cases. The only way it is worse is if there is a long period of high damage and drk gets healed by damage earlier.

Also worth pointing out, current Eden is the baby level tier, while difficulty will increase next tier and the tier after, where invulns will be used more often. So basing your argument off of one tier is a pretty bad way to assess a skill.

Fine, look at the previous tiers. In how many encounters there actually are long high damage periods where immunity is used where the proposed ld would be worse? The fact is the most common way to use immunities is to prevent simple tankbusters, since long high damage periods are usually aimed at the whole group, which in turn means that tanks take them much more easier and no immunities are needed. I have had one example in here where it is worse and I give you that, but I can think 10 other instances where it is better.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

I would use heals to top the drk off before the first stonecrusher much more gladly than having to heal him afterwards. It's much more easier to top him off before that first hit when he has only taken a couple of autoattacks compared to having to heal 100% of his hp afterwards. I don't know why that would be a problem but wasting stuff to heal 100% of his hp isn't.



I don't even understand what you mean by this, maybe I did not make myself clear. The duration of living dead and walking dead would stay the same, you would only receive extra healing from all the damage, so walking dead would end sooner in some cases. The only way it is worse is if there is a long period of high damage and drk gets healed by damage earlier.



Fine, look at the previous tiers. In how many encounters there actually are long high damage periods where immunity is used where the proposed ld would be worse? The fact is the most common way to use immunities is to prevent simple tankbusters, since long high damage periods are usually aimed at the whole group, which in turn means that tanks take them much more easier and no immunities are needed. I have had one example in here where it is worse and I give you that, but I can think 10 other instances where it is better.

I mean Benediction says hello, which means more uptime in glare casts. And not every situation will allow to make sure the DRK is topped off before the hit which is wasted resource if you have Benediction in LD current form.

Just because you repeat it, doesn't make it any less of a DIRECT NERF, because it is effectively shorter in duration than holmgang in many cases. Tankbusters such as Akh Morns, Bahamut's flatten + Flare breaths, triple Incinerate from Ifrit in uwu, Alexander prime's cleave, TB, Cleave, will be a, you guessed it, a dIRECT NERF with your proposed LD.
Honestly, the only time LD is an actual problem, is when in pug content with randoms that dunno what they're doing. If you use LD as a planned CD like all others, it's just as effective as all other invulns, but this proposed LD is not good design.

[Samsta]

I mean Benediction says hello, which means more uptime in glare casts. And not every situation will allow to make sure the DRK is topped off before the hit which is wasted resource if you have Benediction in LD current form.

Just because you repeat it, doesn't make it any less of a DIRECT NERF, because it is effectively shorter in duration than holmgang in many cases. Tankbusters such as Akh Morns, God kefka, with share + Hyperdrive, triple Incinerate from Ifrit in uwu, will be a, you guessed it, a dIRECT NERF.
Honestly, the only time LD is an actual problem, is when in pug content with randoms that dunno what they're doing. If you use LD as a planned CD like all others, it's just as effective as all other invulns, but this proposed LD is not good design.

Ah, here comes the "just bene it lol". You can just bene it before the tankbuster also and it's the same thing so null point there. The original point was that the current ld is a blackhole for resources counting bene, it's not good that I have to save bene for ld, I don't have to do that for any other immunities. This basically means that if we decide to use ld, I lose one of my cooldowns since I absolutely have to save it for ld. Just because you bold the text doesn't make it a direct nerf, it's a nerf in those situations, not overall. The problem with current ld is not that pugs don't know what they are doing, it's that it requires so much more from the healers than any other immunity, yeah it works, but that doesn't make it good. But you have obviously made your mind, I dunno why you value the duration so much since it's irrelevant in most cases, ironically in the god kefka case you listed my version is better, since the walking dead pops from the stack and the hyperdrive heals it. Just continue to deny the fact that immunities are rarely used for prolonged damage where there are 3 or more heave hits.