The state of healers is affecting everyone

[Granyala]

On some recent E2S runs:

50th percentile healing

Try 95 percentile+ healing with less than 20% overheal and you have a description of my group.

I don't get that much time to DPS on E2S but then again, my group is only exploring the quietus phase now.

I think the arguments about "farm encounters are boring" isn't a valid one. Farm encounters are boring whether you are DPS, Healer or Tank. That's why we're calling them farm encounters and dispose of them in a quick and quiet manner. A class shouldn't be designed around farm encounters.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

No idea what gave you that assumption just because we have differing opinions, but you're very wrong. If you'd like to see what kind of a player I am in savage raids, there is a public site in which you may use to check. Otherwise, I kindly ask that you keep ad hominem to a minimum.

That wasn't directed at you, hence why it was under the other poster's quote. I directed it at them because they made a bunch of veiled insults about how I'm a poindexter who only cares for numbers, and more importantly, they said they DON'T do Savage. For future reference, I put responses BELOW quotes.

Yes, they can. However, the problem is the community and how outspoken some are on how they interpret the game should be, despite any design choices made by the game's team.

The game design team obviously does not solely balance based on high end players. If they did, they wouldn't think Verraise is worth RDM being 2000 DPS behind BLM; raise does not save early Savage runs, but it does save less difficult content. The alternative is that the job balance team doesn't know HOW to balance to the high end.

I can't think of a single fighting game where button mashing is designed around, but I can think of a fighting game with a simple, small command list and is still fun (Divekick). Granted, that game would not be to everyone's liking.

Divekick's balance patches took tournament player feedback and tournament results int accout. It was still being balanced at the high end post-launch, despite starting out as an april fool's joke.

I can't agree as I've known quite a couple to progress solely through PUGs (due to work schedules not being consistent to allow them to raid with a static) and still gain a week 1 clear in terms of savage raids. They didn't do it blindly, though, but all the same, it was possible to do it without a pre-made group. All this comment does is make me think back to my above comment here on how a vocal community says the game should be versus how it was designed by the developers.

I never said people couldn't do it. But the fights should be designed with the assumption that players are communicating.

An assumption on your part with no evidence. I have a static and I love my co-healer. However, I am still very realistic about how the game ends up being with the players I end up playing the game with on a majority basis - the people outside of a static. I'm not disagreeing with that last statement. Mostly. That's something I've stated before to a similar effect, but may have been lost in other things I was saying. So, to that extent, we agree on something.

When you talk about not being able to rely on your cohealer, what am I supposed to think? PUGs and a difficult co-healer are the only things that come to mind. I honestly feel for anyone who has to deal with PUGs with no friends for refuge. Because it's always a crapshoot what you're going to get (like delay netplay in fighting games!).

Essentially, the game should be designed so that it doesn't become significantly LESS fun the better you get at it.

Looking at past logs, in Stormblood, you pressed Malefic III 135 times out of 162 attacks, but Shadowbringers is worse.

Not a response to me, I know, but I'll interject here that healing has been getting worse since ARR in this regard. Maybe some of it is players getting better/having logs (like how WoW Classic Beta players complained it was dumbed down, but the reality was it was the same and everyone was WORSE back then). But I think the glut of oGCD's, fewer mini-buster cleaves, and neverending mana reserves killing triage played a big part too. HW had some of the most technical DPS play because of stance dancing and everyone juggling a handful of DoTs, but outliers like Gordias and Midas aside healing got a lot easier.

I mean, just look at SCH right now; in terms of raw healing potential it's absurd, and the other healers aren't much different. I guess I appreciate that it enables solo healing even the hardest content, but it also makes the standard two healers + non-healer support skills WAY overkill in a lot of fights. I wouldn't mind the stunted DPS kits if they actually were just filler between healing strings, but if we're doing a full 30s of nonstop DPS I'd sort of like to have to think about it a bit.

Try 95 percentile+ healing with less than 20% overheal and you have a description of my group.

I don't get that much time to DPS on E2S but then again, my group is only exploring the quietus phase now.

I think the arguments about "farm encounters are boring" isn't a valid one. Farm encounters are boring whether you are DPS, Healer or Tank. That's why we're calling them farm encounters and dispose of them in a quick and quiet manner. A class shouldn't be designed around farm encounters.

I respect people who are essentially solo healing; I want to get there myself. I just referenced the percentile to show I wasn't quoting a greed run.

[Granyala]

I respect people who are essentially solo healing; I want to get there myself. I just referenced the percentile to show I wasn't quoting a greed run.

Well solo healing isn't always possible in savage. Not because WHM lacks the output but because SE doesn't give you enough time.
2nd flare on E2S would be a good example here, since I only get 2 GCDs between flare and stack marker. Not enough to solo that.

I do the heavy lifting in terms of healing for my group because I don't find extended periods of DPSing fun. My SCH co-heal was the opposite but since ShB she too has to heal a lot more than she used to.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

Well solo healing isn't always possible in savage. Not because WHM lacks the output but because SE doesn't give you enough time.
2nd flare on E2S would be a good example here, since I only get 2 GCDs between flare and stack marker. Not enough to solo that.

Pre-positioning Asylum, Temperance, Plenary Indulgence, Cure III x2 with the first being precast isn't enough? That's 1500 potency before Asylum+Temperance boost.

Just curious, since I'm planning on working my way towards being able to solo.

EDIT: Yeah, looks like I only get ~65000 HP healed per person off of that. Swiftcasting (or PoM and clip) the first Cure III and using Assize would add another 15000, for 80000. That seems like it could work?

[JunseiKei]

Essentially, the game should be designed so that it doesn't become significantly LESS fun the better you get at it.

My mistake there on it being addressed to me. Unsure how I completely missed their quote.

Not a response to me, I know, but I'll interject here that healing has been getting worse since ARR in this regard. Maybe some of it is players getting better/having logs (like how WoW Classic Beta players complained it was dumbed down, but the reality was it was the same and everyone was WORSE back then). But I think the glut of oGCD's, fewer mini-buster cleaves, and neverending mana reserves killing triage played a big part too. HW had some of the most technical DPS play because of stance dancing and everyone juggling a handful of DoTs, but outliers like Gordias and Midas aside healing got a lot easier.

I mean, just look at SCH right now; in terms of raw healing potential it's absurd, and the other healers aren't much different. I guess I appreciate that it enables solo healing even the hardest content, but it also makes the standard two healers + non-healer support skills WAY overkill in a lot of fights. I wouldn't mind the stunted DPS kits if they actually were just filler between healing strings, but if we're doing a full 30s of nonstop DPS I'd sort of like to have to think about it a bit.

I respect people who are essentially solo healing; I want to get there myself. I just referenced the percentile to show I wasn't quoting a greed run.

ARR was very different to what we have now. I've said it in other posts, wew 30~35s being a mini tank buster from Twintania, plus mechanics. Funny how healing ultimate Twintania is easier than Twintania at minimum ilvl and lvl (my opinion, of course). Yeah, we were all pretty terrible then.

Eh... Heavensward. Loved the story, kind of hated everything else. They introduced AST, which was honestly fine as it was when it was introduced - ED was an even lower CD than it is now and it's healing potencies weren't that much behind WHM. Too bad every card sucked except balance until they changed that. While Gordias was ... *shiver* ... Midas's mechanics and fights were fun. I actually enjoyed those fights a lot. They had things to do for everyone, similar to some of the Coil fights. There was still an enrage to beat, but it wasn't nearly as overtuned as Gordias. Creator was ... kind of boring mechanically. The thing about solo healing - it's been do-able since ARR. It didn't stop in HW (IE: 'horrible' AST still solo healed G3S). It continued in SB (solo healing ultimates on SCH and AST). It certainly keeps going in SH (co-healer has already solo healed E1S, working on E2S). The only healer that hasn't been able to is ... WHM. The shields / mitigations are really that make-or-break in solo healing. Maybe WHM can solo heal now, as they have Temperance and Benison.

However, there's something I disagree on: a RDM's Verraise being the reason why RDM is so far behind a BLM (which is like comparing a NIN to a MNK in my opinion). I did raid as RDM when it debuted; RDM's issue isn't the Verraise - if anything, I'd love it stricken from the job because other people expected me to raise, even if I was topping the other DPS that hadn't died at all. RDM's issues are there burst lines up with no raid buffs, including their own. Its raid buff is lackluster compared to other utilities to choose from and I wish they'd not have the buff deteriorate over time. In terms of mobility, SMN has superiority while also maintaining better DPS (even now). The class could be easily fixed just by moving their burst window up. It'd not be BLM levels, but it might bring it closer to SMN. However, the XIV chose this and they obviously intended it to be this. However, having a RDM in party doesn't suddenly mean you won't clear content just because of the class. If anything, the XIV team balances based on how the job feels and a design document.

The thing about this game and design is it's very much catered to people with limited time. A lot of high end players have, through one way or another, found themselves with ample time compared to the target demographic, to invest in the game and increase their skill through dedication. That doesn't make them the focus of content - the XIV team has gone out of their way to make content for them despite this (savage and ultimates).

Divekick isn't a serious fighting game nor is it balanced. One of the first things you learn in the FGC is that top players are opinionated and wrong and developers know it. The best balanced fighting game right now is Tekken 7, with Harada basically being known for his "don't ask me for shit" attitude. He listens to the feedback, but he knows most of it is dumb requests. He's seriously going to listen to a bunch of armchair developers over people that have been making the game for the last 30+ years? Of course not.

The fights are designed to be able to be figured out, but communicating on the fly is simply not needed in this game due to the scripted nature of the encounters. The only time you really need to really communicate is if something goes awry. Even if it were, I'd think most players would be too engrossed keeping up their rotations to want to type out things to communicate to others. I find it in bad design to create a game that requires voice communication while also not providing one or providing a poor implementation of it. I know some players would quote me and say voice communications are a standard for MMOs for the past 15+ years. I'd agree, as most MMOs have non-scripted fights or a list of moves a boss pulls from and can use in any order.

Exactly what I've been saying - that all of what I have been saying is in context of not being with a static as that is what the majority of content is done with (at least, for me). I don't dungeon crawl, run EX primals, run normal raids, run 24 man, etc. with the static. Heck, there will be a point where I'll end up doing savage with PF while the static will be regulated to ultimate until the next tier. That doesn't mean I have faith that this scholar will stop broiling to fit an indomitability or place down a much needed sacred soil for some mechanic.

Fun is subjective, though. Some will find perfect play as fun; always chasing those orange percentile numbers, while others will find it robotic and boring.

As for less fun the better you get at it, that's speedrunning in a nutshell to me. This game comes across, to me, as knowledge being the gatekeeper. Once you know it, where is the fun, regardless of the role?

[Gaethan_Tessula]

First off, I appreciate the time you must have put into this response.

ARR was very different to what we have now. I've said it in other posts, wew 30~35s being a mini tank buster from Twintania, plus mechanics. Funny how healing ultimate Twintania is easier than Twintania at minimum ilvl and lvl (my opinion, of course). Yeah, we were all pretty terrible then.

I'd really like to see some of this sort of design again. It's there, and it's possible to put together min ilvl groups, but something in new content many people will run?

I think the encounter design in this game is quite nice, but sometimes I wish we'd get a fight or two that has to be reacted to largely on the fly instead of the usual delicate choreography. Or mob raids (T4, A2). Variety helps.

Nothing to add or contest on the HW bits, except that AST at the very, very beginning was bad. After they buffed it, it was fine, but then they kept buffing it.

However, the XIV chose this and they obviously intended it to be this. However, having a RDM in party doesn't suddenly mean you won't clear content just because of the class. If anything, the XIV team balances based on how the job feels and a design document.

While I agree RDM should keep a healing/defensive streak, as someone who mained it in 11 and loves it in 1 and 5, I've been in debates with a lot of top players, including top RDM's who say the problem is Verraise and want it gone. The general thought is that if RDM's rDPS will always be behind BLM (or SUM), because of spammable raise, they just won't take Red Mages after prog. Especially not in its current state where it's so far behind as to be a liability. If RDM is functionally even or ahead of BLM, they wouldn't take BLM.

I've put forth a lot of alternatives, like trading the raise for defensive and healing CD's that help STOP people from dying to begin with (a la curing waltz) and don't eat GCD's like Vercure. The players in question don't buy it, usually bringing up pre-ShB BRD and NIN's dominance. There will always be a meta; I'm hopeful there can be diversity of function in it, but I'll admit it's always easier to just compress function and hope aesthetic and rotation can carry a uniqye feel.

The thing about this game and design is it's very much catered to people with limited time. A lot of high end players have, through one way or another, found themselves with ample time compared to the target demographic, to invest in the game and increase their skill through dedication. That doesn't make them the focus of content - the XIV team has gone out of their way to make content for them despite this (savage and ultimates).


Yoshida's comments to this end are precisely why I think they focus balance on the average, and I still think that's misguided (the balance point, not making an MMO people are hypothetically encouraged to walk away from periodically). I've no illusions that the majority of content made is aimed at the best players: Wildstar kinda showed how that story ends.

However, I think that even a game where most content is meant to be low stress should be partially balanced to reward skill on an emotional/feel level (instead of the practical benefits of faster loot and currency gain). There's a simple solution to this: make the job design deep, deeper than is needed for most content yet still useable in that content. For DPS and tanks, this is already there both in perfecting a rotation and, imo, in making use of support abilities even where they aren't strictly required.

Healing can't do this, because it's entirely dependent on the difficulty of the encounter and most encounters in this game cannot be too hard. Which is why I think healers need something else built into their kit which becomes the focus once healing itself becomes trivial.

Divekick isn't a serious fighting game nor is it balanced. One of the first things you learn in the FGC is that top players are opinionated and wrong and developers know it. The best balanced fighting game right now is Tekken 7, with Harada basically being known for his "don't ask me for shit" attitude. He seemingly cares very little about player feedback.

I'm mostly in the anime side of the scene, and I know firsthand from Elvenshadow that Arc System Works takes the opinions of (Japanese) Guilty Gear pros into account when doing balance patches. They don't let the pros rule their design decisions, but they do listen. Even when they don't, they're looking at tournament and high end arcade rankings to direct balancing decisions: they aren't looking at casual netplayers or the 2-3 dan players who come to the arcade once a month. My general sense of Capcom and SNK is that they're also watching what the top players do, though maybe not what they want. Can't speak to Tekken, never been part of that scene.

The fights are designed to be able to be figured out, but communicating on the fly is simply not needed in this game due to the scripted nature of the encounters. The only time you really need to really communicate is if something goes awry. Even if it were, I'd think most players would be too engrossed keeping up their rotations to want to type out things to communicate to others. I find it in bad design to create a game that requires voice communication while also not providing one or providing a poor implementation of it. I know some players would quote me and say voice communications are a standard for MMOs for the past 15+ years. I'd agree, as most MMOs have non-scripted fights or a list of moves a boss pulls from and can use in any order.

If being designed for PUGs is WHY we have so few random elements in fights, that just makes me want for that paradigm to change even more.

Exactly what I've been saying - that all of what I have been saying is in context of not being with a static as that is what the majority of content is done with (at least, for me). I don't dungeon crawl, run EX primals, run normal raids, run 24 man, etc. with the static. Heck, there will be a point where I'll end up doing savage with PF while the static will be regulated to ultimate until the next tier. That doesn't mean I have faith that this scholar will stop broiling to fit an indomitability or place down a much needed sacred soil for some mechanic.

Fun is subjective, though. Some will find perfect play as fun; always chasing those orange percentile numbers, while others will find it robotic and boring.

Fair enough.

As for less fun the better you get at it, that's speedrunning in a nutshell to me. This game comes across, to me, as knowledge being the gatekeeper. Once you know it, where is the fun, regardless of the role?

The fun is in continuing to learn how you can do even better. Do more damage, heal closer to the red line, beat the fight faster, make no mistakes, etc. Or, though few players do this, push the system with variant runs (solo healer, all tanks, undersized while at level, etc.). You find more things to learn. The more learning to do in the first place, the longer those new ventures will last you.

[Gemina]

Essentially, the game should be designed so that it doesn't become significantly LESS fun the better you get at it.

You nearly defined boredom, or expressed how any given person becomes bored with an activity. Some people have more tolerance for it than others, but it doesn't change that a person has become bored. Smashing one button over and over again is only part of the equation here, and I would argue it is a small part of it. I would wager that despite broil/glare/malefic spam in even difficult content, there is a rush of excitement most of us feel anytime we do content for the first time. After you've cleared it a dozen times over, that excitement is all but gone and you're left with boredom. DPS and tanks suffer the same.

You can argue that at least DPS and tanks have more to do; more buttons to push. However, the one button slamfest has always been a thing for healers. SCH was the exception, but when you boil them down, they really just had more DoTs to manage.

To address previous replies:

I am not trying to invalidate the feelings healers have towards the role whether they are content/bored, or a boastful raider/silent casual. Anyone who has been healing for a while has known that this has been an issue for some time and foresaw the simplification of healer DPS, but had hopes the dev team would increase healing requirements or somehow find a way to make combat more engaging for healers.

What I am saying though is that filler smashing will always be a thing when there is nothing left to do, and that lack of engaging gameplay comes from an assortment of things happening with the game. Homogenization of healer DPS kits, encounter design, ilv progression, low ilv sync requirements, predictable mechanics, content grinding, among others are all contributors to the boredom.

Among all the culprits, our DPS kits concern me the least. It's going to be the last thing I request when it comes to making content more engaging for healers, and feel that nurturing the green DPS aspect to healers to be a sweep under the rug approach towards a goal which should ultimately make healing fun for everyone.

This is a tough goal to obtain though. That is a big reason why I brought up the silent majority earlier because silence still has a voice, and it unfortunately speaks against those requesting changes to be made. The dev team is not intentionally trying to make content for healers a snorefest, and this needs to be understood. It without question has the most challenging role for them to deal with despite there only being three jobs. That's a testament if anything else.

[ForteNightshade]

However, there's something I disagree on: a RDM's Verraise being the reason why RDM is so far behind a BLM (which is like comparing a NIN to a MNK in my opinion). I did raid as RDM when it debuted; RDM's issue isn't the Verraise - if anything, I'd love it stricken from the job because other people expected me to raise, even if I was topping the other DPS that hadn't died at all. RDM's issues are there burst lines up with no raid buffs, including their own. Its raid buff is lackluster compared to other utilities to choose from and I wish they'd not have the buff deteriorate over time. In terms of mobility, SMN has superiority while also maintaining better DPS (even now). The class could be easily fixed just by moving their burst window up. It'd not be BLM levels, but it might bring it closer to SMN. However, the XIV chose this and they obviously intended it to be this. However, having a RDM in party doesn't suddenly mean you won't clear content just because of the class. If anything, the XIV team balances based on how the job feels and a design document.

Yoshida came right out and insisted Verraise was Red Mage's utility which is why they couldn't buff it initially. He reigned on that statement due to Summoner's sheer dominance from 4.1 onward. There is no question they're taxing both Verraise and Resurrection now. Much in the same manner the Physical Range are being taxed for utility they supposedly have yet don't. In regards to Red Mage's burst. The difference between it and Summoner is negligible. What's holding it back is how insanely imbalanced Black Mage is relevant to both its counterparts.

You nearly defined boredom, or expressed how any given person becomes bored with an activity. Some people have more tolerance for it than others, but it doesn't change that a person has become bored. Smashing one button over and over again is only part of the equation here, and I would argue it is a small part of it. I would wager that despite broil/glare/malefic spam in even difficult content, there is a rush of excitement most of us feel anytime we do content for the first time. After you've cleared it a dozen times over, that excitement is all but gone and you're left with boredom. DPS and tanks suffer the same.

Does it eventually tire? Sure, to some degree. But both DPS and Tanks are actively engaged with a full rotation they have to maintain. I always have to be mindful of my buff placements or thinking about if delaying IR will let me sync it with an upcoming Trick. Healers lack any of this nuance. Once you know how to heal the fight, your gameplay is essentially done. And unlike the aforementioned DPS and Tanks, you don't have the luxury of an engaging rotation to fall back on. While I'm prepping a Fell Cleave spam, setting up for Gnawing into Continuation or lining up Litany, Blood and Nastrond. You get to spam Glare for the 1000th time.

Put another way, Tanks and DPS always engage in their primary role. Yes, tanks still have tank mechanics but lets face is, they're essentially hybrid DPS. And that works for many players given the tank aesthetic and rotation suits it. Healers, on the other hand, hardly ever focus on their primary role. If they also had an interesting DPS rotation perhaps it could work like the tanks. They don't. They have one button. Which is why so many healers have been complaining for years now.

[Granyala]

Pre-positioning Asylum, Temperance, Plenary Indulgence, Cure III x2 with the first being precast isn't enough?

Not if the boss decides that you are the one that gets the Flare and has to run around.
Also, other people are too far away at the time (there are 3 flares total) for Cure III to be effective for everybody.

[KadaRemnant]

I have no issues and i play all healers and love them.