Ranged DPS role is about to be excluded from all content

[Karja]

i would say balance around the 90-95% range.

But what would that mean in RPDS?
If I apply BLMs RDPS at 95 percentile as RDPs for DNC and then use the same % decrease DNC currently has it would deal more RDPs than BLM at 50 percentile by nearly 500 dps.
Another point is how good must a player be to currently achive 50% in a fight like E4S? And must a player be as good to do it on another Job e.g. is 50% for a DNC equally demanding thant 50% on BLM?
Should this even matter?

When it comes to the skill ceiling, if the balance of a job is skewed due to a higher intentional complexity in order to justify higher dps, then there should be an endgame imbalance. However, this would mean that the job is also not liable to receive QoL updates to decrease difficulty, something Level 80 Black Mages may note is exactly what Xenoglossy is. This difficulty must also be something that can be objectively perceived, not just something on a subjective level, since players may excel at different things, and to punish a player for being who they are (as a person) is something that shouldn't happen.

The difficulty of BLM isn't alone that you are less mobile compared to a physical ranged (even with xenoglossy the mobility is nowhere near the same for BLM and ranged physical, DNC even has En Avant) but also the fact that skill weaving is significantly harder on BLM than on physical ranged since you have very few options for weaving.
And the lastly that your big DPS cooldown in Leyline forces you to stand in a small place for 30 seconds, I'm currently not aware of another DPS buff that has such a requirement.
There are certain DPS spells like salted earth though.

[HyoMinPark]

balancing for a potential max is futile as at this point there come things like a bard that suddenly has a procc rate of 65% on his dots

This doesn’t happen anymore. Repertoire is fixed at a flat 40% now, so the proc rate never changes like it did in Stormblood.


Balance shouldn’t be done with lower percentiles in mind simply because of how they reflect below average, average, or slightly above average potential for jobs; and balancing around “just average” would spell even more problems and potentially create even larger disparities at higher percentiles due to skill level and players pushing a job’s higher potential versus its lower potential. Hence why you should balance not quite at peak performance (100th percentile or Max percentile), but at something slightly below but also really high (95th percentile).

EDIT because residual posting limit from yesterday still in effect:

you missed my point there, Reportoire is fixed, but its still random. was i hyperbolic with a 65% procc rate ? yes, if you can get that in a 10 minute fight you should really start playing the lottery, but there will still by trys where you in actuality have a 35% procc rate and fights where 45% of all dots procc, my argument was simply that taking the absolute maximum is bad because what the absolute maximum shows are statistical anomalys, thats the try where a 99% bard suddenly gets 45-50% reportoire proccs) and crits 70% of his apex arrows even though his crit rate is 40%

Then I apologize, but your phrasing made it sound far more like the Repertoire/DoT proc rate was manipulatable, as it was in Stormblood; not that your DoTs were proc-ing 65% of the time in a fight, or that your skills were crit-ing at 60/65/70+% as opposed to a more “normal” rate.

[Akiudo]

But what would that mean in RPDS?
If I apply BLMs RDPS at 95 percentile as RDPs for DNC and then use the same % decrease DNC currently has it would deal more RDPs than BLM at 50 percentile by nearly 500 dps.
Another point is how good must a player be to currently achive 50% in a fight like E4S? And must a player be as good to do it on another Job e.g. is 50% for a DNC equally demanding thant 50% on BLM?
Should this even matter?

which is a big reason why i said to use more than one fight and also said "balance around" not "make every class perfectly equal at" if we take an average fight, and on this average fight a dancer (with all contributions) at 50% is 300 dps above blackmage and at 95% is 200 below that is perfectly fine, that would mean in an extremly movement heavy fight dancer would probably even pull ahead, whereas if there's a fight with absolutely minimal movement the 50% blackmage would most likely equal the dancer whereas at the high percentile it would pull away by 500 instead of 200 dps. Also, people tend to throw together the skill ceiling with the skill floor, balance for the upper end, and if one class has to hard a falloff below a certain percentile then try to raise the floor for that class

This doesn’t happen anymore. Repertoire is fixed at a flat 40% now, so the proc rate never changes like it did in Stormblood.

you missed my point there, Reportoire is fixed, but its still random. was i hyperbolic with a 65% procc rate ? yes, if you can get that in a 10 minute fight you should really start playing the lottery, but there will still by trys where you in actuality have a 35% procc rate and fights where 45% of all dots procc, my argument was simply that taking the absolute maximum is bad because what the absolute maximum shows are statistical anomalys, thats the try where a 99% bard suddenly gets 45-50% reportoire proccs and crits 70% of his apex arrows even though his crit rate is 40%

edit:

Then I apologize, but your phrasing made it sound far more like the Repertoire/DoT proc rate was manipulatable, as it was in Stormblood; not that your DoTs were proc-ing 65% of the time in a fight, or that your skills were crit-ing at 60/65/70+% as opposed to a more “normal” rate.

letting my original clarification stay so it doesn't look like i talk to myself, but yea my wording was maybe not ideal, simply wanted to clarify that both "dumb luck" and "manipulation" (so the rest of the points i listed) are reasons why using the absolut max percentile is bad.

[kajv95]

The difficulty of BLM isn't alone that you are less mobile compared to a physical ranged (even with xenoglossy the mobility is nowhere near the same for BLM and ranged physical, DNC even has En Avant) but also the fact that skill weaving is significantly harder on BLM than on physical ranged since you have very few options for weaving.
And the lastly that your big DPS cooldown in Leyline forces you to stand in a small place for 30 seconds, I'm currently not aware of another DPS buff that has such a requirement.
There are certain DPS spells like salted earth though.

You're missing the point a little. The main takeaway is that jobs are designed to be interesting and different in their own right (though they do occasionally miss the mark) and don't really consider the difficulty in that sense, rather more that it's fun to play in it's own right. Aside from that, I can't consider weaving to be much more difficult than atleast BRD and MCH right now, and "we can't weave as well as you guys" is a non-argument when that is more or less exclusive to your job. At that point, you'd have to argue that BLM is the single most difficult job in the game, which no job really is.

And must a player be as good to do it on another Job e.g. is 50% for a DNC equally demanding thant 50% on BLM?
Should this even matter?

I'm not sure if you know how percentiles work. If a 50% player is doing their best on a DNC and a 50% player is doing their best on BLM e.g. they are stagnant and aren't improving due to personal inability, then for those two people it is, in fact, equally demanding.

[Hussain]

I like how some people here think mobility tax deserve to put ranged at this very low rdps , so low that the 1% main stat buff literally doesn't even put them ahead of triple melee and double blm comps
what's even the point of role stat buffs when it doesn't even guarantee a spot for any physical ranged? lmao

[aiqa]

The difficulty of BLM isn't alone that you are less mobile compared to a physical ranged (even with xenoglossy the mobility is nowhere near the same for BLM and ranged physical, DNC even has En Avant) but also the fact that skill weaving is significantly harder on BLM than on physical ranged since you have very few options for weaving.
And the lastly that your big DPS cooldown in Leyline forces you to stand in a small place for 30 seconds, I'm currently not aware of another DPS buff that has such a requirement.
There are certain DPS spells like salted earth though.

That is already included in the rDPS metric on fflogs.
It's expressed quite clearly in the delta between lower and upper quartile.
For a BLM that is generally quite a bit bigger than for other classes.

It doesn't disprove the claim BLM is a bit overtuned though.
Even the lower quartile (players that have a more difficult time with the movement issues) BLM does higher rDPS than any other ranged class.
Only at 10th percentile BLM rDPS starts dropping bellow other ranged classes.

[SieyaM]

I like how you say all content, and then proceed to only talk about raiding.

[Myon88]

I like how you say all content, and then proceed to only talk about raiding.

Ah, you're laboring under the impression that pve content besides savage and ultimate matters at all from a tuning standpoint. An easy mistake to make, but I hope that clears it up for you.

[CKNovel]

I like how you say all content, and then proceed to only talk about raiding.

Ho boi, poor choice of you to bring this up.
Dungeons and Normal Trials are irrelevant they are just one clear thing you queue for.
I won't talk about PVP but that's also queued and you won't be able to ban a job, plus it's a whole balance of its own.

Remains the EX trials, Savage content and Ultimate content which are "all" the end game content:

-EX is the easiest and let me tell you, back in SB Machinist was straight banned from PF party EX. Calling EX trial is very generous as those have very few mechanics. Yet EX content is also a content where the "mobility advantage" doesn't shine at all, all jobs are equally disadvantaged. Not only that but you can have HW - Zurvan like situation where you want as most DPS as possible to skip an annoying mechanic. Skip soar, kick the ranged they bring nothing to the group and they have the lowest damage. You start to see the scenario?

-Savage content is where the real shit starts, where DPS matters a lot. Often you will either run with a static or pugs. If your group has balls, they will run double ranged.

-Ultimate is the least cleared content where the tiniest number will matter. Sooo, you need balls of steel to run double ranged if SE won't overtune this fight.


Now among all these endgame content, which one is the most likely to be cleared and farmed by the community? That's right, EX content.
The same EX content where players actually lock out jobs and ask for big DPS.

In other words: The most played endgame content will lock out ranged as they have no advantages, the second most played won't desire a second ranged, the third most will rely on SE choice to either kill or give a big advantage to melee jobs.

[SieyaM]

I would say this savage is the only thing that matters mentality is why the levelling experience turns off new players and is so abysmal right now. No one wants to even consider how these jobs play before you get to savage or in any other content.