5.08 Patch - DPS still not balanced.

[Kabooa]

Why do people defending current "balance" play as blm+mnk+drg and have week 1 clears that wouldn't be possible with other jobs?

Because it literally was possible.

It wasn't easy, but it was possible.

If you actually looked through the data instead of looking at the aggregate you find plenty of groups who had one of the three and 3 "underpowered" dps and clearing. You find rare examples of those with none and clearing.

You find the 1 + 3 examples where the 1 could have been replaced with another job and still cleared.

This doesn't mean don't adjust jobs.

It means stop throwing out bad information.

[AikenDrum]

This doesn't mean don't adjust jobs.
It means stop throwing out bad information.

What bad information? Jobs need to be adjusted is the main point of all this.

Ah i see, i need to spell all of it apparently:

Why do people defending current "balance" play as blm+mnk+drg and have week 1 clears that these particular clears i obviously mean and not talking about being unable to clear with more attempts, wouldn't be possible with other jobs?
My point being: playing "overpowered" jobs you were able to get clears without putting more work which you would otherwise had to if you were playing bottom jobs.

[Akiudo]

And a final point, RDM is never the catered-to job. It is usually always one of the caterers. For example, RDM doesn't get much benefit out of Brotherhood. They would get more out of Trick, but who's running Ninja these days, how many groups are feeding cards to their RDM? Nobody lol. Meanwhile the 3 top jobs you're referring to get fed in nearly every group. I don't mind comparing apples to oranges but at least recognize which is which.

what exactly do you think this means ? i don't mean this in a mocking way, but it sounds like you try to say that part of the reason the high up jobs are high up is because they get buffs, they get cards, brotherhood, eye of the dragon or get to be the dance partner. Because if thats what you mean (and i don't know how to read it otherwise) than please be aware that fflogs changed their metrics. If you do 13k dps and than get buffed for 2k by a dancer and cards you will end up at 15k dps on the parser, however when uploading to fflogs the 2k you got buffed for will get deducted right away so you still get a 13k dps parse even if during the fight it showed you at 15k

[Myon88]

*Oops the person above beat me to it, but yeah 'catering' isn't as possible now that dps is ranked by raid dps and not personal dps. Any dps those jobs would gain from buffs is being given back to the jobs that cast those buffs instead now. Just wondering if you knew that, it's a common misconception since rdps rankings are a fairly new development.

[Kabooa]

My point being: playing "overpowered" jobs you were able to get clears without putting more work which you would otherwise had to if you were playing bottom jobs.

Your point is a baseless assumption.

You don't personally know the effort any individual has put in, the quality of that effort, the quantity, the combined effort of supporting players, literally anything other than what you can extrapolate from data (That no one ever looks through).

Given you specifically focus on week one, I think it better to say "Everyone put in immense amounts of effort" instead of "Those guys? They didn't put in as -much-."

[Dogempire]

Not really. Ideally you have 2 melee, a physical ranged and a caster so that you at least get the full party bonus. Telling your caster to be anything other than a caster, in this situation, is detrimental to the rest of the party by way of flat damage loss. Furthermore, unless you're such a hardcore elitist that relationships mean jack shit, if the caster you've run with 2 years decides to go RDM instead of SMN (because SMN has mostly been a dumpster fire this expac), who are you to force them to play BLM instead? What if it's not even leveled because they never liked the job to begin with? You're going to what, kick that person you've been raiding with for 2 years because they don't want to play as a chad BLM so you can bask in the glory of 1000 extra raid dps? Get real bruh. We did just fine with RDM, we absolutely smashed minimum damage requirements. If you can't do it with a RDM then you got bigger problems that have nothing to do with how RDM performs or it's contributions (about 800 dps in our physical heavy comp) to the raid group.

And a final point, RDM is never the catered-to job. It is usually always one of the caterers. For example, RDM doesn't get much benefit out of Brotherhood. They would get more out of Trick, but who's running Ninja these days, how many groups are feeding cards to their RDM? Nobody lol. Meanwhile the 3 top jobs you're referring to get fed in nearly every group. I don't mind comparing apples to oranges but at least recognize which is which.

Uhm, dude, we literally have a red mage, a dancer, and a machinist in my group, literally 3 of the bottom of the barrel dps jobs, not to mention that we have an AST as one of our healers, I don't care if they play what they want instead of one of the more overtuned jobs. You seem to have some problems judging by your post and I hope you can work through them.

My point is that it would be much easier to beat dps requirements if the jobs were, you know, balanced? Like, 80th percentile machinist isn't equivalent to a 40th percentile monk?

Also buffing black mages with your own raid buffs only increases your own rdps and therefore your parse percentile, not the other way around.

[Katie_Kitty]

Not really. Ideally you have 2 melee, a physical ranged and a caster so that you at least get the full party bonus. Telling your caster to be anything other than a caster, in this situation, is detrimental to the rest of the party by way of flat damage loss. Furthermore, unless you're such a hardcore elitist that relationships mean jack shit, if the caster you've run with 2 years decides to go RDM instead of SMN (because SMN has mostly been a dumpster fire this expac), who are you to force them to play BLM instead? What if it's not even leveled because they never liked the job to begin with? You're going to what, kick that person you've been raiding with for 2 years because they don't want to play as a chad BLM so you can bask in the glory of 1000 extra raid dps? Get real bruh. We did just fine with RDM, we absolutely smashed minimum damage requirements. If you can't do it with a RDM then you got bigger problems that have nothing to do with how RDM performs or it's contributions (about 800 dps in our physical heavy comp) to the raid group.

And a final point, RDM is never the catered-to job. It is usually always one of the caterers. For example, RDM doesn't get much benefit out of Brotherhood. They would get more out of Trick, but who's running Ninja these days, how many groups are feeding cards to their RDM? Nobody lol. Meanwhile the 3 top jobs you're referring to get fed in nearly every group. I don't mind comparing apples to oranges but at least recognize which is which.

Two things:

1) Why would it be "ideal" to bring two melee? There is no reason why two melee would be inherently better except that melee are currently tuned to be far stronger than everyone else but BLM.

2) I'm not sure why you're bringing up raid buffs. Catering and padding are not a factor in this at all because fflogs shows rDPS (personal DPS minus buffs received plus buffs given) which means padding is not considered, and in fact rDPS should be biased in favor of jobs like RDM or NIN over BLM or SAM because they bring raid buffs to the table. The fact that the top jobs absolutely obliterate them even in rDPS with padding removed demonstrates just how insane the gap is.

[Kabooa]

Two things:

1) Why would it be "ideal" to bring two melee? There is no reason why two melee would be inherently better except that melee are currently tuned to be far stronger than everyone else but BLM.

2) I'm not sure why you're bringing up raid buffs. Catering and padding are not a factor in this at all because fflogs shows rDPS (personal DPS minus buffs received plus buffs given) which means padding is not considered, and in fact rDPS should be biased in favor of jobs like RDM or NIN over BLM or SAM because they bring raid buffs to the table. The fact that the top jobs absolutely obliterate them even in rDPS with padding removed demonstrates just how insane the gap is.

1. Fights are generally designed with having 4 melee, or rather, 4 mobile jobs in close proximity. The same reason we don't see quadruple melee, and rarely see triple melee - At that point you're likely forcing someone out of melee range (Probably the tanks) or you're half a step from obliterating your neighbor, which in turn can cascade deaths depending on the encounter.

2. Catering, as in, "we deal with this part of the fight specifically around this job / role". This is generally where "max" values come from. While you can no longer pad with raid buffs, there's a significant difference in value each job gains depending on how a party positions for encounters. IE Pantokrator Eden1 during orb baits instead of making your caster run around to drop puddles. All four of them I imagine for speed running

Buff wise, eh. No real comment there.

[AikenDrum]

Your point is a baseless assumption

My basis is that with same percentile lower jobs wouldnt have enough dps to beat the enrage, where as your top jobs did.

[whiskeybravo]

what exactly do you think this means ? i don't mean this in a mocking way, but it sounds like you try to say that part of the reason the high up jobs are high up is because they get buffs, they get cards, brotherhood, eye of the dragon or get to be the dance partner. Because if thats what you mean (and i don't know how to read it otherwise) than please be aware that fflogs changed their metrics. If you do 13k dps and than get buffed for 2k by a dancer and cards you will end up at 15k dps on the parser, however when uploading to fflogs the 2k you got buffed for will get deducted right away so you still get a 13k dps parse even if during the fight it showed you at 15k

Yes, of course. It's not rocket science. The thing is, it's basically always been that way. Support jobs have always done less raw damage than damage dealing jobs. Only now it's a "problem" because it's more apparent, or something.

So the only solution is to get rid of support jobs and just have every DD at 15k DPS (or whatever arbitrary number you want to input). You can't have support jobs deal as much damage as raw dps jobs, because then they would boost each other and exclude the raw dps jobs eventually. Even so, if all the jobs then do more base DPS, SE simply designs bosses to have more HP. It's a horizontal shift that doesn't actually grow into anything new or interesting.

Uhm, dude, we literally have a red mage, a dancer, and a machinist in my group, literally 3 of the bottom of the barrel dps jobs, not to mention that we have an AST as one of our healers, I don't care if they play what they want instead of one of the more overtuned jobs. You seem to have some problems judging by your post and I hope you can work through them.

My point is that it would be much easier to beat dps requirements if the jobs were, you know, balanced? Like, 80th percentile machinist isn't equivalent to a 40th percentile monk?

Also buffing black mages with your own raid buffs only increases your own rdps and therefore your parse percentile, not the other way around.

I mean, you were the one railing on RDM. So I'm not sure how that indicates some problem of my own. I don't have any problem with jobs as long as the person playing it does so at an acceptable level and isn't a detriment to the group. If you want to take 4 BLM, go for it, but everyone else in the group will do less damage as a result. That's balanced? Or not balanced? Perhaps someone should settle on a proper definition of balance to begin with.