Square Enix, please think about both Casual AND Hardcore crafters..

[CookiesNCreams]

"In your opinion, why do you believe easy crafting should stay?"

OK, turn it around then. In your opinion why do you believe easy [easier] crafting should not stay? Your original premise, and the title for this whole thread, has been "think about casual AND hardcore crafters", although your arguments have been only about how to make it more difficult for casual crafters.

Well, I believe easy crafting should stay. I just want easy crafting to be mixed in with hard crafting, just not on the same level /standards. For example, for any recipe (including glam) that is UNDER level 80, the rotations should be easier, it’ll help players who are leveling crafters and trying to get exp. It’ll even help people selling glam prisms and other items.

As for level 80 end game recipes? Absolutely not. That should be difficult. Why? Because as the name implies, “end game”, usually means that you have reached end game content, which, is supposed to be hard or prove to be some sort of challenge to players who made it all the way to lvl80. Most online games I’ve came across, use the term “end game” as a way to prove what you know and put your skills to the test. However, in FFXIV, they seem to have that backwards.

Not only that, but every patch ever since 4.0, they seem to add more easy mechanics that make crafting even more of a children’s mini game rather than an intellectual thing. (Yes I know, 2.x and 3.x’s rng was not that intellectual, but using tricks of the trade to better your chances during a craft sounds intellectual to me, rather than spamming Delicate synthesis and Prudent Touch.)

Reward players who are taking the time to level from 1 - 79 on every crafter with easy recipes.
Reward players who have spent the gil, time, and hours to meld and obtain everything including books at lvl 80 .... challenges.

[Zfz]

What about something like this?

Expand on the concept of crafting conditions. Turn them into crafting events that require the use of a combination of actions appropriate to the events to resolve. Ignoring these crafting events will actually decrease your Quality. While they are still RNG events, they can all be resolved 100% as long as you are not using a macro.

Casual crafters using macros can still complete the crafts, but because macros cannot respond appropriately to crafting events, it is almost guaranteed to produce NQ only.

The challenge will lie in how the events are designed, and whether they actually make people think and plan out their actions. If the events are simple "if event A then use action B" events, then there is no challenge. Events that provide a challenge, i.e. require the player to use their full understanding of crafting actions and the recipe, could be:

• Events that causes certain actions to be modified such that after the event, the player will need a different rotation to push for Quality/Progress.
• Events that require a certain combination of actions be performed within N turns, and the player will need to plan out the response taking into account the Quality/Progress goal at that time. The required actions can consume 0 CP/Durability during the N turns to avoid situations where the crafter is unable to resolve the event simply because he's already nearing the end of his craft and have little CP left.
• Events that buff certain actions while nerfing certain other actions, that are designed to make regular macros produce 0 Quality.

With this kind of design, though, the gap between NQ and HQ items will need to be widened, or else people will just get used to NQ consumables and NQ gear. Furniture and gear items can be configured such that only HQ items can be dyed. NQ pets can be made to bind upon completion (so only HQ pets can be sold on the market board).

Or simply make it so that only HQ items can be traded. Casual crafters can still enjoy all their items for personal use, but only serious crafters get to make a buck out of crafting. It would also mean that there are no fixed rotations to give away, making every idiot and his dog master crafters, churning out HQ items as long as they have the time.

I'm sure there are ways to improve crafting for the serious crafter without making everyone experience the 99% NQ again. It just isn't fun that way.

[DrWho2010]

they had modifiers for the ixal quests in crafting... and people hated them. i don't see them bringing this back.

[Plastics]

What really bothers me right now is that crafting is actually backwards. SE talks about accessibility, yet all they do is trivialize each new expansion's crafting content further. Legitimately with NQ vendor gear at 71+ you have an easier time crafting anything than you do during say ARR/HW. In those expansions, you're either accepting the fact that long HT rotations will inevitably give you an HQ or you're trying to squeeze out every upgrade you can get to heavily reduce the RNG. There are level gaps where recipes jump significantly in difficulty but no upgrades are available, making low-RNG rotations quite difficult to manage. You *still* have to level through this content to get to ShB, and at 50, 60, and 70 you have a big wall caused by clvl that requires insane gear to overcome, or using CDs/BTs/GC turn ins.

So the reality of it is: leveling up to ~63 is more difficult content than anything after that point, by a large margin, made somewhat simpler by the fact that you can use new food at low levels (and its high % makes it extremely broken). Meanwhile, the very end game of crafting is utterly trivial by comparison to past expansions or even this leveling content. If crafting were "accessible" getting up to the current expansion would be the easy part, and then it would get harder, not the reverse.

The state of crafting and leveling 70-80 is a bit broken right now. Leves shouldn't be anywhere near this strong, nobody feels a need to upgrade gear at all which indicates the difficulty curve is broken, and there's nothing to distinguish master crafting from level 78-80 crafts. Not even ingen 2 has a purpose. Combine this, abilities that dramatically shorten rotations, and the fact that there's 0 benefit to manual crafting and this expansion is full of 1 button macros that can 0-100 most recipes.

What was the actual point of making initial quality scale up to 75%? Was this even tested?

[JowyAtreides]

Right now, you can craft from 1-100% quality with HQ crafted gear and only tier 4 or below materia melds used. Obviously this gear setup isn't future-proof but it shows that there isn't even a lot of effort needed prior to crafting in order to even get the numbers.

I think I've suggested it before, perhaps in this thread or in another, but they should give each master recipe a different handicap, such as "can't use cross class skills from LTW" or "can't use delicate synthesis". Leave leveling recipes as they are, give endgame crafters something to think about, a little more intimacy with their skillsets rather than just pushing a macro button. Ultimately people will set up macro's for each variation of handicap eventually, but we at least get a period of time where some idea of difficulty or brainpower is required.

[Cleanse]

Right now, you can craft from 1-100% quality with HQ crafted gear and only tier 4 or below materia melds used. Obviously this gear setup isn't future-proof but it shows that there isn't even a lot of effort needed prior to crafting in order to even get the numbers.

I think I've suggested it before, perhaps in this thread or in another, but they should give each master recipe a different handicap, such as "can't use cross class skills from LTW" or "can't use delicate synthesis". Leave leveling recipes as they are, give endgame crafters something to think about, a little more intimacy with their skillsets rather than just pushing a macro button. Ultimately people will set up macro's for each variation of handicap eventually, but we at least get a period of time where some idea of difficulty or brainpower is required.

Because of the internet, macros will be out and available on day one.

The only suggestion mentioned in this thread that will give people a way to differentiate themselves from the macro crafters would be if SE updated the system to include new randomly timed statuses that require human interaction (like the DNC "Step" actions).

They can even use their current system of Good/Excellent statuses to achieve this. ex. ~~If~~ When a "Good" status, which would need to be guaranteed, procs, they can use an action that will open up a mini puzzle sequence you need to do in order to complete the craft with maximum value or you can finish the craft as normal without the boon (whatever SE decides can be done to differentiate without wrecking the market/fun).

[DrWho2010]

what does a mini-puzzle sequence have to do with crafting? that would make no sense. they can't even do complicated button presses for battle "Active Time Sequence".

[CookiesNCreams]

Breaking news: In a recent interview with Yoshida, he stated that they are going to “overhaul” crafting and gathering and it’ll be such a significant change that he’s dedicating an entire Live Letter (either part 1 or 2) for explaining it. Likely going to be Part 2.

This might mean that Yoshida has listened to hardcore and casual crafters and is actually planning on stabilizing the mechanics somehow. Maybe he’s even read this thread, lol. Or, it could mean he is making it even easier. If that is the case, then that’ll be unfortunate.

Source: https://twinfinite.net/2019/08/final...rview-yoshida/

[Plastics]

I think by "overhaul" I think they mean smoothing out the bumps. Some simple changes that wouldn't be harmful:

1. Significantly increased experience from 1-60
2. Class quests give a full set of end-game approximate gear at 50/60/70 like combat classes get (and can get via poetics)
3. Further cleaning up redundancies and cross-class abilities

I'd like to see them fundamentally change crafting so manual crafting is the only reliable way to HQ outside of significantly overgearing, but I know a lot of people don't like that idea. I also happen to think they're part of the problem -- having thousands of people mindlessly popping a macro and not having any real gating mechanism ruins the market and also the interesting challenge. It's more fun to try to optimize ARR leveling atm than it is crafting 2* recipes.

[CookiesNCreams]

Breaking news: In a recent interview with Yoshida, he stated that they are going to “overhaul” crafting and gathering and it’ll be such a significant change that he’s dedicating an entire Live Letter (either part 1 or 2) for explaining it. Likely going to be Part 2.

This might mean that Yoshida has listened to hardcore and casual crafters and is actually planning on stabilizing the mechanics somehow. Maybe he’s even read this thread, lol. Or, it could mean he is making it even easier. If that is the case, then that’ll be unfortunate.

Source: https://twinfinite.net/2019/08/final...rview-yoshida/

I think by "overhaul" I think they mean smoothing out the bumps. Some simple changes that wouldn't be harmful:

1. Significantly increased experience from 1-60
2. Class quests give a full set of end-game approximate gear at 50/60/70 like combat classes get (and can get via poetics)
3. Further cleaning up redundancies and cross-class abilities

I'd like to see them fundamentally change crafting so manual crafting is the only reliable way to HQ outside of significantly overgearing, but I know a lot of people don't like that idea. I also happen to think they're part of the problem -- having thousands of people mindlessly popping a macro and not having any real gating mechanism ruins the market and also the interesting challenge. It's more fun to try to optimize ARR leveling atm than it is crafting 2* recipes.

I agree. Though, this is the first time Yoshida has made such a bold claim. I mean, “overhaul”? It must be a pretty huge deal if I’m honest. If it is what I think it is, it’ll actually balance out crafting to where it’s not ridiculously easy anymore, but also not ridiculously hard.

This is probably the first time in 3-4 years I’ve actually been slightly excited about a live letter lol. This would make so many hardcore crafters happy that they actually listened to them, and made it balanced. This could change crafting forever.

....But, let’s be realistic here. It’s probably just going to make crafting even easier than it is now, because Yoshida’s track record on meeting expectations isn’t exactly good.