Maybe RDM need....

[Mansion]

I think there is also a problem with how the "skill gap" has been even more narrowed down in 5.X with the loss of the Impact gameplay. There were terrible RDMs that played Jolt / VerThunder/Aero / Jolt etc. with no real understanding of the benefit of Impact (or even procs in general). There's no real DPS gain now with Jolt and VerStone/Fire so close from each other.
Now the only "skill gap" I can see is players making benefits of Displacement boosted potency, and perhaps being comfortable playing around slidecast-dualcast for movement rather than using Reprise. During Stormblood, and excellent RDM could be not so far behind an average BLM / SMN.

This kind of "dumbs down" the job for me, and I have the impression that the devs lock the job out of better DPS score just because it's so easy compared to SMN or BRD, more than being that raise machine. So for me, RDM needs a bit more than raising its raid buff or overall potencies. I'd rather see new mechanics tied to its gameplay to make it a bit more complex at higher levels, which would be rewarded by better personal DPS for instance.

[Katie_Kitty]

I think there is also a problem with how the "skill gap" has been even more narrowed down in 5.X with the loss of the Impact gameplay. There were terrible RDMs that played Jolt / VerThunder/Aero / Jolt etc. with no real understanding of the benefit of Impact (or even procs in general). There\\'s no real DPS gain now with Jolt and VerStone/Fire so close from each other.
Now the only "skill gap" I can see is players making benefits of Displacement boosted potency, and perhaps being comfortable playing around slidecast-dualcast for movement rather than using Reprise. During Stormblood, and excellent RDM could be not so far behind an average BLM / SMN.

This kind of "dumbs down" the job for me, and I have the impression that the devs lock the job out of better DPS score just because it\\'s so easy compared to SMN or BRD, more than being that raise machine. So for me, RDM needs a bit more than raising its raid buff or overall potencies. I\\'d rather see new mechanics tied to its gameplay to make it a bit more complex at higher levels, which would be rewarded by better personal DPS for instance.

Gotta say I don't really see this at all tbh. For me the main takeaway from the loss of impact is how reliant it makes us on RNG not some idea of a "skill gap". Don't really see the point of feeling smug over the potential existence of people too dumb to utilize the job's procs. I mean those people are so far gone I can't even acknowledge them as red mage players so to me that's less skill gap and more just people not playing the job correctly at all.

The reason why RDM was stronger late in stormblood was because it did more damage comparatively not because it was more difficult or because it had more options for optimization. RDM today is almost exactly the same as RDM yesterday, just without the safety cushion of impact and with a lower amount of damage potential compared to other jobs especially BLM. I'd actually argue it's more the result of changes to other jobs more than changes to RDM.

[Katie_Kitty]

Never understood people who argue instantly against DPS gains for RDM.

We can all see the huge disparity between the jobs, we all complain about this balancing v stormblood which the disparity was a lot less.

We ask for the top to be nerfed to reduce the problems. People say no buff lower jobs, no need to wreck someone else’s love in the game.

We Ask for buffs to bring us closer to the dps to restore the disparity to a more reasonable level and people say no dps gains aren’t needed

This huge disparity is effecting a lot of jobs atm And it’s benching quite a few jobs, there’s no need to uphold this level of dps difference between jobs and it’s not justified either.

We don’t need a 1700-2100 dps disparity between jobs. Just because one has a rezz or has 600 RDPS it doesn’t add up.

For some reason, unfortunately, it seems that a lot of people simply have some kind of weird personal grudge against red mage. Like it sometimes goes beyond them thinking the job is weak and leans more into the territory of "I don't like red mage or red mage players and don't want them at all." So naturally you get a lot of those people chiming in on balance discussions arguing tooth and nail against any and all buffs because, in their mind, red mage must be kept down at the bottom at all times or even removed from the game. I don't really get it but it is what it is.

[UfoCoffee]

I play both classes and Bard isn't that harder. People think that but the songs are just buffs, not hard to keep track of really. Just end army 10 sec early. Keep your dots up every 30 sec. That's it. You never have to hard cast like rdm has to do. If you're talking about keybinds, both classes have the same for me. Bard has more OGD's but you can move whilst casting them which makes it easier.

[UfoCoffee]

For some reason, unfortunately, it seems that a lot of people simply have some kind of weird personal grudge against red mage. Like it sometimes goes beyond them thinking the job is weak and leans more into the territory of "I don't like red mage or red mage players and don't want them at all." So naturally you get a lot of those people chiming in on balance discussions arguing tooth and nail against any and all buffs because, in their mind, red mage must be kept down at the bottom at all times or even removed from the game. I don't really get it but it is what it is.

That's what i've seen. People seem to hate on red mages and samuais also for whatever reason.

[Capn_Goggles]

RDM doesn't need any of that, it just needs a flat DPS increase. I don't know if SE actually thinks that a crappy cure spell and a raise makes up for bringing practically no damage to a fight as a damage-dealer, but if so they are wrong. The cure *might* prevent a wipe in a dungeon run when the healer falls asleep and the raise is only moderately useful in anything outside of Savage/Extreme. Frankly, the difficulty of playing a job should have no bearing on what it actually brings to a fight, otherwise you're enforcing the idea of a "training wheels" job that is bad on purpose. Anybody who is familiar with tabletop gaming should be familiar with the idea of ivory tower game design and trap options, and why these were such phenomenally terrible ideas in execution.

[RadicalPesto]

For some reason, unfortunately, it seems that a lot of people simply have some kind of weird personal grudge against red mage. Like it sometimes goes beyond them thinking the job is weak and leans more into the territory of "I don't like red mage or red mage players and don't want them at all." So naturally you get a lot of those people chiming in on balance discussions arguing tooth and nail against any and all buffs because, in their mind, red mage must be kept down at the bottom at all times or even removed from the game. I don't really get it but it is what it is.

"Red Mage is too easy to be allowed to be good" is a common talking point I see, which becomes silly when Red Mage needs to play at a higher skill level to achieve results comparable to those of a bad Black Mage, and few of the DPS jobs in Shadowbringers being actually hard.

[Capn_Goggles]

"Red Mage is too easy to be allowed to be good" is a common talking point I see, which becomes silly when Red Mage needs to play at a higher skill level to achieve results comparable to those of a bad Black Mage, and few of the DPS jobs in Shadowbringers being actually hard.

I think the argument is that if a Red Mage and Black Mage had equal DPS at the most optimal level of play, that it would be unfair because Red Mage is way easier to play than BLM. Naturally, because RDM brings *some* DPS utility and is absurdly easy to play, it shouldn't be QUITE as strong as BLM, but being easy to play is no reason to leave a job in the dumpster.

[PatronasCharm]

Gotta say I don't really see this at all tbh. For me the main takeaway from the loss of impact is how reliant it makes us on RNG not some idea of a "skill gap". Don't really see the point of feeling smug over the potential existence of people too dumb to utilize the job's procs. I mean those people are so far gone I can't even acknowledge them as red mage players so to me that's less skill gap and more just people not playing the job correctly at all.

The reason why RDM was stronger late in stormblood was because it did more damage comparatively not because it was more difficult or because it had more options for optimization. RDM today is almost exactly the same as RDM yesterday, just without the safety cushion of impact and with a lower amount of damage potential compared to other jobs especially BLM. I'd actually argue it's more the result of changes to other jobs more than changes to RDM.

I agree with this, it's absolutely true. Red Mage saw no significant changes besides AoE's that are weak and were called Veraero/Thunder II bc you know SE has a phobia of giving RDM Water or Blizzard, and Scorch, then two situational moves. Not saying that I want it's overall design to be changed, because I believe it is pretty perfect, BUT, they could have done so much MORE, I already posted something in this thread about it, and have even made my own Give Red Mage Blizzard and Water already thread; so I don't want to beat on a dead horse because quite frankly, SE isn't going to do anything significant until 6.0, but the shear disappointment to RDM's toolkit in 5.0 was just a weak attempt. Maybe when I return in 3 or so months my Red Mage will be in its prime again.

[Zyneste]

I think the argument is that if a Red Mage and Black Mage had equal DPS at the most optimal level of play, that it would be unfair because Red Mage is way easier to play than BLM. Naturally, because RDM brings *some* DPS utility and is absurdly easy to play, it shouldn't be QUITE as strong as BLM, but being easy to play is no reason to leave a job in the dumpster.

That's the hyperbolic strawman that's brought up all the time.

No one is ever asking for BLM level damage, but the gap between BLM and RDM should be smaller. An 11% Difference in damage at the highest skill level for two classes in the same role is absurd.

Relative to 100 Percentile*
Difference for Healers: ~2.5
Difference for Tanks: ~.5
Difference for Melee: ~5 [This score is still normalizing, so i'm using the last week instead of 2 weeks. Odds are most Ninjas aren't geared yet]
Difference for Ranged: ~2%
Difference for casters: ~11%

The caster role needs broken apart or reevaluated if this sort of damage gap is going to continue.