Maybe RDM need....

[SaberMaxwell]

Interestingly, RDM actually holds a higher absolute maximum parse on Voidwalker Savage on FF logs than MCH or BRD. It is very close behind summoner in absolute maximum potential.

In addition, the statistical maximum is slightly higher then both MCH and BRD and is much much higher than the upper quartile value for the job.

In the theoretical absolute maximum, where every proc goes RDM's way, the group goes to the moon with maximizing getting buffed by embolden, and they don't even have to think about the tools in the kit they're balanced around...they're better than two other subpar jobs.

No yeah you're right, everything's balanced.

This indicates to me that a large majority of RDM players play below the maximum potential of RDM.

Hm...but this runs contrary to the narrative that Red Mage is the super easy job that deserves to be weak because of its ease of use. Not saying that's your argument, but I'm gonna keep a pin here in case it comes up.

I would put this down to the fact that the majority of fights end up with deaths and wipes that result in RDM sacrificing personal DPS to raise.

This is one heck of an assumption. I see the bases for this assumption, but it is still a large assumption on your part.

The damage of RDM should be balanced to an ideal situation where no raise is necessary.

Agreed. And when no raise is necessary, they still struggle to compete with bard and machinist.

If they were able to match the damage of other utility jobs while raising, and also bringing embolden, RDM would be overpowered. This is why RDM always looks underpowered on logs.

Separating "damage" and "embolden" while the graph in question used is an rDPS graph is disingenuous at best and intentionally misleading at worst.

I am not sure RDM needs a buff in this respect. BRD, MCH and RDM all feel disadvantaged right now simply because both NIN and DRG are overtuned.

And MNK.

Since the other two melee, SAM and MNK, are both personal-dps classes (and therefore should be doing more damage than utility jobs),

Monk has mantra. Mantra is a really powerful cooldown that buffs shielding and regens, and can carry a minimum iLv group through the Tumult-Voice-Tumult-Voice frenzy that is Titan's soft enrage before his hard enrage. In many ways, Mantra is a more powerful utility than verraise, as unlike verraise Mantra is always useful. What's more, none of its peers have mantra-likes to match it, even Ninja doesn't give any non-rDPS utility anymore since aggro management was shifted entirely to the tanks.

5.08 melee are currently overtuned. The current insanely overpowered state of NIN is very likely to change in 5.1... leaving the major problem-child as DRG.

When NIN comes back down, DRG could use a nerf and MCH could use a buff (given that it has no DPS-based utility). SAM could also use a little extra love to put it on par with BLM and MNK but it is not far behind, numerically.

Yes, 5.08 melee are currently overtuned. MNK, like DRG, needs to come down for the utility outlined above. Or the floor could be brought up. Either the ceiling comes down, or the floor comes up, that's the state we're in right now.

Red Mages are not raising in successful raids that end in clears and get uploaded to fflogs. Certainly not more than once or twice at absolute max, certainly nowhere near enough for you to claim they only "look" underpowered. What is this imbalance apologia crap I'm reading?

If the party is really strong DPS-wise, you can suffer quite a few verraises before enrage even on Titan. That's the funny thing though: the stronger your party, generally the better and less useful verraise would be. However, the weaker the party, the lower the threshold before deaths mean enrage.

[Zyneste]

Hm...but this runs contrary to the narrative that Red Mage is the super easy job that deserves to be weak because of its ease of use. Not saying that's your argument, but I'm gonna keep a pin her ine case it comes up.

Felt this in my soul.

Monk has mantra. Mantra is a really powerful cooldown that buffs shielding and regens, and can carry a minimum iLv group through the Tumult-Voice-Tumult-Voice frenzy that is Titan's soft enrage before his hard enrage. In many ways, Mantra is a more powerful utility than verraise, as unlike verraise Mantra is always useful. What's more, none of its peers have mantra-likes to match it, even Ninja doesn't give any non-rDPS utility anymore since aggro management was shifted entirely to the tanks.

Definitely feel it in raids.

If the party is really strong DPS-wise, you can suffer quite a few verraises before enrage even on Titan. That's the funny thing though: the stronger your party, generally the better and less useful verraise would be. However, the weaker the party, the lower the threshold before deaths mean enrage.

Can relate. This tier is really showing how RDM is an "Early Prog to learn the fight, then switch if your party members can't compensate for your damage, even at high play levels" or "prog after a few weeks in" kind of job. Once we had a couple weapons we've cleared runs with 7 deaths, but without the weps we could barely clear with a single damage down, let alone a death. Thats not exactly this godly prog machine that RDM is painted as.

[Maero]

@ Rathael
I would not say the large majority of RDM players play below max potential, it is the job itself that is kind of weak AF atm.
Some players said it best in other threads were as the best Red Mage players will do less damage then average level blm players (even with them dying i might add)
This is just an example of course and i do not think blm is OP like some seem to continue to say (it is almost perfect atm), other jobs should just be buffed slightly so the gap is closer
RM absolutely no questions asked needs damage buffs and perhaps tweaks t it's Utility as that is not strongest either

[ForteNightshade]

This indicates to me that a large majority of RDM players play below the maximum potential of RDM. I would put this down to the fact that the majority of fights end up with deaths and wipes that result in RDM sacrificing personal DPS to raise. The damage of RDM should be balanced to an ideal situation where no raise is necessary. If they were able to match the damage of other utility jobs while raising, and also bringing embolden, RDM would be overpowered. This is why RDM always looks underpowered on logs.

At 95th percentile or above, you aren't going to see Verraise once. If there is a death, that responsibility is entirely on the healers. This bracket is Red Mage focusing on damage and nothing else. And it's overall damage contribution is laughable next to Black Mage. Even at 75% you will see very few Verraise, and they certainly won't tax Red Mage by the staggering amount it currently is.

I am not sure RDM needs a buff in this respect. BRD, MCH and RDM all feel disadvantaged right now simply because both NIN and DRG are overtuned. Since the other two melee, SAM and MNK, are both personal-dps classes (and therefore should be doing more damage than utility jobs), 5.08 melee are currently overtuned. The current insanely overpowered state of NIN is very likely to change in 5.1... leaving the major problem-child as DRG.

When NIN comes back down, DRG could use a nerf and MCH could use a buff (given that it has no DPS-based utility). SAM could also use a little extra love to put it on par with BLM and MNK but it is not far behind, numerically.

Did you forget about Mantra and Brotherhood? Both are incredibly useful utility that Monk provides. In fact, Brotherhood is roughly the equivalent of Battle Litany. Leaving Monk in its current state but nerfing Ninja and Dragoon will simply result in a double Striking melee comp. As Saber noted above, either the entire ceiling—which includes Black Mage alongside the melee—needs to come down or the floor needs to go up.

[Drayos]

Interestingly, RDM actually holds a higher absolute maximum parse on Voidwalker Savage on FF logs than MCH or BRD. It is very close behind summoner in absolute maximum potential.

In addition, the statistical maximum is slightly higher then both MCH and BRD and is much much higher than the upper quartile value for the job.



This indicates to me that a large majority of RDM players play below the maximum potential of RDM. I would put this down to the fact that the majority of fights end up with deaths and wipes that result in RDM sacrificing personal DPS to raise. The damage of RDM should be balanced to an ideal situation where no raise is necessary. If they were able to match the damage of other utility jobs while raising, and also bringing embolden, RDM would be overpowered. This is why RDM always looks underpowered on logs.

I am not sure RDM needs a buff in this respect. BRD, MCH and RDM all feel disadvantaged right now simply because both NIN and DRG are overtuned. Since the other two melee, SAM and MNK, are both personal-dps classes (and therefore should be doing more damage than utility jobs), 5.08 melee are currently overtuned. The current insanely overpowered state of NIN is very likely to change in 5.1... leaving the major problem-child as DRG.

When NIN comes back down, DRG could use a nerf and MCH could use a buff (given that it has no DPS-based utility). SAM could also use a little extra love to put it on par with BLM and MNK but it is not far behind, numerically.

Pre ninja buffs there was a week where ninja was mid pack dps on leviathan in the same position.

The thing resets every 2 weeks and the damage amount could have been lower for that set or something else.

99 percentiles are maximising the job and it does need buffing. We should not be being balanced around MCH/Bard but should be around BLM and Summoner.

99 percentile parses would not have raises involved either u simply would not get 99 percentile if u had to raise team mates.

RDM needs buffs, 700 RDPS and a progression tool should not equate to a 2k dps difference SBs difference between RDM and BLM was 1.1k, and that is what it should go back to realistically.

[Katie_Kitty]

Interestingly, RDM actually holds a higher absolute maximum parse on Voidwalker Savage on FF logs than MCH or BRD. It is very close behind summoner in absolute maximum potential.

In addition, the statistical maximum is slightly higher then both MCH and BRD and is much much higher than the upper quartile value for the job.



This indicates to me that a large majority of RDM players play below the maximum potential of RDM. I would put this down to the fact that the majority of fights end up with deaths and wipes that result in RDM sacrificing personal DPS to raise. The damage of RDM should be balanced to an ideal situation where no raise is necessary. If they were able to match the damage of other utility jobs while raising, and also bringing embolden, RDM would be overpowered. This is why RDM always looks underpowered on logs.

I am not sure RDM needs a buff in this respect. BRD, MCH and RDM all feel disadvantaged right now simply because both NIN and DRG are overtuned. Since the other two melee, SAM and MNK, are both personal-dps classes (and therefore should be doing more damage than utility jobs), 5.08 melee are currently overtuned. The current insanely overpowered state of NIN is very likely to change in 5.1... leaving the major problem-child as DRG.

When NIN comes back down, DRG could use a nerf and MCH could use a buff (given that it has no DPS-based utility). SAM could also use a little extra love to put it on par with BLM and MNK but it is not far behind, numerically.

Red Mages are not raising in successful raids that end in clears and get uploaded to fflogs. Certainly not more than once or twice at absolute max, certainly nowhere near enough for you to claim they only "look" underpowered. What is this imbalance apologia crap I'm reading?

[Capn_Goggles]

Anybody who thinks Red Mage is a super easy job fundamentally doesn't understand that just because a job is easy to play on a basic level (spam thunder, aero until proc, cast procs, use buffs, balance out mana for 80/100) doesn't mean there isn't a thousand tiny little ways to optimize it. I'm not going to claim Red Mage is total galaxy-brain in execution, but it's not as cut and dry as something like BLM where the obvious way to optimize it is to move less and cast your biggest spells as often as physically (magically) possible.

[Mansion]

Anybody who thinks Red Mage is a super easy job fundamentally doesn't understand that just because a job is easy to play on a basic level (spam thunder, aero until proc, cast procs, use buffs, balance out mana for 80/100) doesn't mean there isn't a thousand tiny little ways to optimize it. I'm not going to claim Red Mage is total galaxy-brain in execution, but it's not as cut and dry as something like BLM where the obvious way to optimize it is to move less and cast your biggest spells as often as physically (magically) possible.

Optimization an gameplay are separate things. During one of those early Live Letters, there was this strange "Job difficulty will change with player skill" or something along those lines, which makes sense in most jobs. Optimization is something any god player is working towards, based on job rotation, buff synergies and individual fight mapping. There's no arguing with this, and I personally think it's a good thing to have some room for improvement.

But then, optimizing is still finite at some point, and while I won't say RDM is braindead easy in every respect, I'm pretty sure it's the easiest of the Ranged DPS at level 80. Proc management requires a bit more planning on BLM and reactivity / decision making on BRD. RDM procs are longer, more comfortable to work around.
Movement is easier than BLM and SMN (especially because it's kind of clunky for the latter), movement tools have little room for efficient use because it's damage so it boils down to "use before you lose". And now Reprise is a supplementary tool for last resort. (physical ranged are not comparable here, but BLM has to carefully consider its movement tools / pre-positionning and SMN has to hope Trances line up with movement phases somehow )
Mana overcapping and Manafiation use are not that hard as people want to make it sound like.
There is no weaving bloat with less oGCDs to use and virtually one GCD out of two available for these. (compared to SMN, BRD)

Once again, I'm not saying it's braindead easy. But it's easier than most ranged jobs. In that respect, I'm not surprised to see RDM on the lower end (not lowest!) of ranged DPS. Not by today's altered standards of course, because the figures make no sense right now.

[DeCiph]

Can we instead of buffing the dmg maybe give the dude like 4-5more "Healer" abilities? Like some high CD ones.
An AOE heal.
One that does both dmg and heal.
Another target heal but with higher numbers.
Some Atk that only heals the Red Mage while he does dmg(Melee).
And the list goes on - so much freedom
Since Red Mage is supposed to use both Black and White Magic with melee in the cost of dmg him getting more Utility should Help.
Also them being long CD shouldn't change up to much and increase his Damage a fair bit as well.

Red Mage being able to heal more while doing Dmg should allow healers to have higher dps as well. This should get him fairly high up in the list.

[Zyneste]

Can we instead of buffing the dmg maybe give the dude like 4-5more "Healer" abilities? Like some high CD ones.
An AOE heal.
One that does both dmg and heal.
Another target heal but with higher numbers.
Some Atk that only heals the Red Mage while he does dmg(Melee).
And the list goes on - so much freedom
Since Red Mage is supposed to use both Black and White Magic with melee in the cost of dmg him getting more Utility should Help.
Also them being long CD shouldn't change up to much and increase his Damage a fair bit as well.

Red Mage being able to heal more while doing Dmg should allow healers to have higher dps as well. This should get him fairly high up in the list.

Not that this is really the core of the thread, but I don't think RDM should be getting anything else from the WHM side. A role action like Erase was perfect, because it was given to all the casters. We can't keep having more WHM tools in the kit, than BLM. Where is the balance that RDM is supposed to represent. Best I could come up with for a new BLM based skill in the RDM kit is a new Manawall.

Manawall - creates a shield on target party member or self and all those within 6 Yalm for 10% of their max health. Cool down of 90 seconds. Duration 15 seconds.

[edit: Thinking about it more I think id rather manawall protect 15% of targets hp and 15% to the rdm. Like dragon sight it could be used on self for just 15% for the rdm for solo or if no party member is close enough.]

Fills rdms survival niche, while allowing support. Weaker than Manaward, but brings it's own advantages. Vercure, VerRaise and Manawall and addle would be their support kit, no real need for an ogcd heal in my mind.

I'd just move engagement to 40 and just slap this in its place, but you could honestly do that with any support skill. The only downside is that we'd be feeding even more into the notion that RDM does less damage because it has support. Where is the line where our DPS is okay and having actual support is okay? If its not a huge tradeoff, I'd take it, but I'm not gonna give up a large chunk of damage for a support ability that will either cost me damage or be on a long cool down.