Monk should it be "Nerfed" ?

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

snip

Except MNK is not top? At the highest level of play BLM is barring one fight. Supportive roles should naturally be higher when accounting raid dps otherwise what would the point in bringing a support over a pure? Case in point with BLM currently. Monk is not like the other supports however, as stated it is completely tied to composition and rng. One could argue that Battle litany is also RNG, but crits are valued a lot higher than flat damage % (50~% extra damage). If you placed monk in the worst comp, it would be about the same dps as SAM, hence SAM needs further damage.

This discussion is like a rewind in time to HW where MNK could pull 3k but DRG and NIN did more raid dps. A selfish DPS should not do more raid damage than a supportive DPS, which is how dps is sorted on FFLOGs otherwise there's no need to take one. And again MNK's personal and raid dps are tied to rng and party comp. Take monk out of the optimal comp and it is no longer below BLM but below DRG.

The other jobs need potency buffs, or you nerf BLM, DRG and MNK. But jus MNK on its own? No.

[Xan_Kriegor]

Across all 4 turns at the highest percentiles BLM is above MNK except in Leviathan, which has no positionals. Of course MNK should perform better there. To preface Monk's position as a dps you need to take into account that Brotherhood is RNG and comp dependant. At best you buff 6 players (2 tank, 2 melee, 2 ranged) at worst you buff 3 (2 tanks, 1 melee) granted these comps wouldn't be optimal as you lose out on party bonuses. The raid dps in brotherhood drops from 450~ to 180~(tanks don't contribute to it as much) furthermore, in the worst comp Monk's are 50% less likely to gain chakras over the best comp. 2-3 extra Forbidden Chakras becomes 1-1.5. Losing thousands of potency across a fight just based on comp. So now the Monk also loses roughly 50% of their TFCs in my E1S I did 17 forbidden chakras, worth 1.1k dps, half that is 650~dps going from optimal to non optimal comp is roughly a 900~ dps loss through no fault of the player. Nerfing Monk because of its RNG and party composition related dps is absurd. Monk should be at the top. Its position is fine, the only changes needed are SAM being higher and the other outliers being raised. Nerfing an RNG and composition dependent class is just ridiculous. If Monk's DPS was not RNG and comp dependent I would agree it's overtuned, but because of the variance it can have because of such factors I disagree that a nerf is needed.

You do have a point. However, the data from other percentiles does not corroborate your point.

If MNK dps is only high because of its RNG nature, then MNK should not be at the top of rDPS chart when we choose to look for data at lower pecentiles in Savage fights. After all, lower percentiles MNK would probably be grouping with non optimal comps and, therefore, losing a lot of rDPS. However, at lower and average percentiles MNK is ahead in all fights. In some fights MNK loses the lead to BLM only at 95th percentile and in Leviathan (as you said) MNK just leads the rDPS chart for all percentiles.

The gap between BLM+Melee Role in comparison to the other DPS Jobs is really high at the moment. And MNK and BLM seem to be the most overtunned of them. It does not mean that MNKs do not have problems, I know they do and there are things that should be reworked. However, the MNK Job is clearly overtunned right now.

[TaiyouSeishin]

Except MNK is not top? At the highest level of play BLM is barring one fight. Supportive roles should naturally be higher when accounting raid dps otherwise what would the point in bringing a support over a pure? Case in point with BLM currently. Monk is not like the other supports however, as stated it is completely tied to composition and rng. One could argue that Battle litany is also RNG, but crits are valued a lot higher than flat damage % (50~% extra damage). If you placed monk in the worst comp, it would be about the same dps as SAM, hence SAM needs further damage.

This discussion is like a rewind in time to HW where MNK could pull 3k but DRG and NIN did more raid dps. A selfish DPS should not do more raid damage than a supportive DPS, which is how dps is sorted on FFLOGs otherwise there's no need to take one. And again MNK's personal and raid dps are tied to rng and party comp. Take monk out of the optimal comp and it is no longer below BLM but below DRG.

The other jobs need potency buffs, or you nerf BLM, DRG and MNK. But jus MNK on its own? No.

It was said in direct reference to "mnk" should be top. I dont argue that utility needs to have a benefit, why take a utility that basically doesnt do anything, but that is also dependant on the type of utility provided. If all you have is dps increase utility, fine, but if you have a more supportive utility, that is taxed without refund, look at smn and rdm with a raise and a heal. (Im not gonna jump into the debate on wether they are taxed fairly or not it was just a reference)

Regardless of how dependant or situational utilities are, they are still taxed with everyone else... so...

[SpeckledBurd]

MNK as Brotherhood on a 90s cooldown that may only boost physical dmg by 5% but it's a straight up dmg boost compared to Battle Litany that is only 10% crit chance boost which also has double the recast time of 180s.

MNK also has Mantra which though isn't a dps buff it buffs healing by 20% and is on a 90s cooldown. Drug's other buff may be a dmg buff of 5% but it only effects one other party member and is on a 120s cooldown. MNK buffs are more frequent and reliable while one of DRG's only helps with crit rng and the other only boosts on party member both of which have long cooldowns.

Just looking at how the damage is split out, RNG as a DPS buff isn't a problem because statistically it's going to average out over the course of a fight, as is the nature of random chance. Case in point, if you look at how FFlogs breaks out the DPS contributions for buffs, Brotherhood ends up being about 100 DPS less than Battle Litany, and you're really undervaluing Dragon Eye also, which adds up to ~200 DPS over the course of the fight.

The other thing you're forgetting is Monk's output is variable and highly party comp dependent. A Monk with a Dragoon will perform better than a Monk without one because of how strongly Monk benefits from the crit buff. Brotherhood's overall effectiveness also varies with the party composition, so a Monk in a caster heavy party will be performing worse than a Monk in a standard composition.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

In some fights MNK loses the lead to BLM only at 95th percentile and in Leviathan (as you said) MNK just leads the rDPS chart for all percentiles.

And that could arguably be down to player skill that BLM overtakes MNK. I'm of the personal opinion that jobs should be balanced by their skill ceilings, not the floor. So generally looking at lower % doesn't represent optimal play and is hard to judge. Though I do think MNK is generally a straight forward job it does have its intricacies and problems.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...t&dpstype=pdps

Looking at the adjusted DPS (which removes a Monk's raid contribution) it is only 200 dps above samurai at the top level of play. That 200dps is about 3-4 forbidden chakras, which is where this problem for MNK comes, it's personal dps is directly tied to it's raid dps. How do you play around RNG that is tied to raid dps? Except DNC with Saber Dance, no other job has raid dps tied to personal dps.

This is why I believe that MNK is not overtuned and more-so that other jobs need to be brought up. SAM should be another 200-300 dps higher for the high end. Putting it on par with MNK. If MNK gets bad RNG, SAM ends up higher. Which i think is fair. In regards to other jobs though, SMN and RDM should both be higher. The res tax they both suffer from at this point is unwarranted given the tightness of dps checks when going for first kills support jobs should be around DRG levels of rDPS and Pure DPS Jobs should be around MNK. I don't believe BLM should be such an outlier when initially it was high dps with low mobility, nowadays it has high on demand mobility when needed with procs, instand casts, triplecast and swiftcast.

TL: DR i believe MNK should be the top support DPS given it's RNG elements tied to its personal and raid contribution. But I do think other jobs need to be brought in line with DRG as the standard for support DPS and MNK as the standard for selfish DPS.

If you're going to nerf MNK then subsequently BLM, DRG and SAM to a lesser degree need to all be nerfed, not just one but at that point, why not just buff other jobs. Buffing has a more positive psychology attached to it as opposed to nerfing them all.

[Xan_Kriegor]

And that could arguably be down to player skill that BLM overtakes MNK. I'm of the personal opinion that jobs should be balanced by their skill ceilings, not the floor. So generally looking at lower % doesn't represent optimal play and is hard to judge. Though I do think MNK is generally a straight forward job it does have its intricacies and problems.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...t&dpstype=pdps

Looking at the adjusted DPS (which removes a Monk's raid contribution) it is only 200 dps above samurai at the top level of play. That 200dps is about 3-4 forbidden chakras, which is where this problem for MNK comes, it's personal dps is directly tied to it's raid dps. How do you play around RNG that is tied to raid dps? Except DNC with Saber Dance, no other job has raid dps tied to personal dps.

This is why I believe that MNK is not overtuned and more-so that other jobs need to be brought up. SAM should be another 200-300 dps higher for the high end. Putting it on par with MNK. If MNK gets bad RNG, SAM ends up higher. Which i think is fair. In regards to other jobs though, SMN and RDM should both be higher. The res tax they both suffer from at this point is unwarranted given the tightness of dps checks when going for first kills support jobs should be around DRG levels of rDPS and Pure DPS Jobs should be around MNK. I don't believe BLM should be such an outlier when initially it was high dps with low mobility, nowadays it has high on demand mobility when needed with procs, instand casts, triplecast and swiftcast.

TL: DR i believe MNK should be the top support DPS given it's RNG elements tied to its personal and raid contribution. But I do think other jobs need to be brought in line with DRG as the standard for support DPS and MNK as the standard for selfish DPS.

If you're going to nerf MNK then subsequently BLM, DRG and SAM to a lesser degree need to all be nerfed, not just one but at that point, why not just buff other jobs. Buffing has a more positive psychology attached to it as opposed to nerfing them all.

I disagree with your points related to the RNG comp elements. If we sum up all the parses this effect has already been taken into account. However, I do agree with your conclusion. The main balance problem right now is related to the difference from BLM + Melees with the other DPS. Before 5.0.8, I thought the best solution for this would be to nerf the rDPS from BLM, MNK, DRG and SAM (in a lesser degree) to the other ones, since there were six jobs with small rDPS differences.

However, now that SAM and NIN have been brought up almost to the Tier 1 rDPSers, I think it may be better to just buff the other ones to this level too. I still think that MNK and BLM are slightly ahead from the other top contenders (DRG, SAM, NIN), however this difference is less significant than the gap between BLM+Melee against the others. The problem of just buffing everyone is the power creep. At the expansion launch, only DRG and BLM seemed OP, but patch after patch other DPSers received buffs. This is bad, since it relaxes the DPS checks on fights, making the content easier to clear and also turning the DPS from tankers and healers even less relevant in the global scheme.

I do think that all DPS Jobs could not have a difference higher than 5% or 600 rDPS. After achieving this, we can discuss about Ress, mobility taxes and other aspects to change the DPSers ranks within this rDPS interval.

[CrashofZenki]

Doesnt the top MNKs cheat tho? I hear they use 3rd Party programs to check server tick to exploit Anatman.

[Kabooa]

Doesnt the top MNKs cheat tho? I hear they use 3rd Party programs to check server tick to exploit Anatman.

Regen isn't a 3rd party program.

[Ryaz]

The avatar always makes males look ugly. Lol.

[xxvaynxx]

And that could arguably be down to player skill that BLM overtakes MNK. I'm of the personal opinion that jobs should be balanced by their skill ceilings, not the floor. So generally looking at lower % doesn't represent optimal play and is hard to judge. Though I do think MNK is generally a straight forward job it does have its intricacies and problems.

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...t&dpstype=pdps

Looking at the adjusted DPS (which removes a Monk's raid contribution) it is only 200 dps above samurai at the top level of play. That 200dps is about 3-4 forbidden chakras, which is where this problem for MNK comes, it's personal dps is directly tied to it's raid dps. How do you play around RNG that is tied to raid dps? Except DNC with Saber Dance, no other job has raid dps tied to personal dps.

This is why I believe that MNK is not overtuned and more-so that other jobs need to be brought up. SAM should be another 200-300 dps higher for the high end. Putting it on par with MNK. If MNK gets bad RNG, SAM ends up higher. Which i think is fair. In regards to other jobs though, SMN and RDM should both be higher. The res tax they both suffer from at this point is unwarranted given the tightness of dps checks when going for first kills support jobs should be around DRG levels of rDPS and Pure DPS Jobs should be around MNK. I don't believe BLM should be such an outlier when initially it was high dps with low mobility, nowadays it has high on demand mobility when needed with procs, instand casts, triplecast and swiftcast.

TL: DR i believe MNK should be the top support DPS given it's RNG elements tied to its personal and raid contribution. But I do think other jobs need to be brought in line with DRG as the standard for support DPS and MNK as the standard for selfish DPS.

If you're going to nerf MNK then subsequently BLM, DRG and SAM to a lesser degree need to all be nerfed, not just one but at that point, why not just buff other jobs. Buffing has a more positive psychology attached to it as opposed to nerfing them all.

Mnk is busted dude just admitted.
No matter how you slice it. Mnk is way overturned, even people that raid at the highest level think so like Mr.happy.
Why you think every world race took a mnk.

Just because they have rng doesn't mean anything. Their rng isn't even that low, it's like what? 70%.

Stop trying to defend this broken ass job.
It needs to be nerfed.

Not only is their rdps high, their Pdps too. It rivals blm.
But wait! It totally depends because "rng"!