Emet-Selch

[KaitoAsaha]

It will be hard going back to Zenos but Zenos is in a position to really shake up the Garlemald arc and that could be fun. Also keep an eye on Zenos... Lahabrea might be in there somewhere and not doing very well.

I personally wanted to see Emet and Zenos interact.. getting the two in the same room, with the WoL somewhere in the middle.

[Erendis]

[is confused]

To Lore forums.

[Scintilla]

He was a tempered madman, thats why he cared so much instead of becoming apathetic and cynical old man like immortals overtime should become.

'Should become'? Since when has becoming both apathetic and cynical been compulsory for any immortal being, with the lack of such characteristics being considered abnormal and the result of some unnatural interference (in this case, tempering)?

Tempered? Yes, something he is not only fully aware of, but openly admits to. A 'madman'? Totally subjective. It is also highly likely that a certain proportion of his motivations are a result of his tempering, however, to claim that it would be the sole influence of his actions is an assumption. In contrast to Elidibus and Lahabrea who have both spoken of little other than the of the freeing of Zodiark and the maintenance of balance, Emet-Selch spent just as much time (if not more) talking of Amaurot and it's people, even going so far as to recreate an illusion of the living city and shadows of it's inhabitants. Whilst he undoubtedly considers Zodiark's return as a top priority, from what we've seen so far, Emet also seems heavily driven by the prospect restoring the Ancients, far more than any of his comrades. This difference may imply that the Ascian's are far from thoughtless puppets of Zodiark's, with each still somewhat influenced by their own values and aims. Ultimately, there's still much we don't know and future revelations may support or disprove everything I just said. Little is certain.

[AmemeAmeklin]

What if Emet-Selch is actually our twin brother?

We're blue, he's red, we stand on opposite sides but are really the same sort, the game loves blue and red twins...

[Absimiliard]

'Should become'? Since when has becoming both apathetic and cynical been compulsory for any immortal being, with the lack of such characteristics being considered abnormal and the result of some unnatural interference (in this case, tempering)?

Should is most likely the wrong word to use there since this sort of thing is highly subjective. That said, the archetype of the jaded immortal has been used in works of fiction time and time again. One might even say it's one of the most commonly used tropes in stories that feature excessively old and/or powerful immortal beings. The archetype is typically invoked when an immortal is of such age that even other immortal beings in the same setting seem young by comparison. We've no clue just how much the tempering changed Emet-Selch, but I do believe he could reasonably have developed much the same personality as what we got to see in-game without ever having been subjected to it at all. That man (if you can call him that) is, at least according to himself, even older than Zodiark and Hydaelyn.

[Misutoraru]

I miss Emet-slech. By far my favorite villain as of lately. At first I didn't like him at all and was waiting for him to get somewhere else. As time went on, I started to really enjoy having him around up to the betrayal I was NOT expecting.. His witty remarks. The lore he's given us... Shame he's gone but I'm so looking forward to replaying ShadowBringers in Newgame+.

Yeah, when he first come out in SB, i just found him very annoying, kill him already. ShB done a great job painting us his background, what motivates him to go this far. SE done a great job building a connection between the player and him.

[Absimiliard]

Yeah, when he first come out in SB, i just found him very annoying, kill him already. ShB done a great job painting us his background, what motivates him to go this far. SE done a great job building a connection between the player and him.

That they did. I'm a very stab-happy player when it comes to games, but even I had to admit to feeling a little bad at having to put him down. Many of his reasons were just even if his actions were not.

[Baalfrog]

'Should become'?

Excactly! Immortality is a pretty big deal, when everything you have and everyone you know (in this case) would disappear from around him. Now if this was the world of old, then it wouldn't matter since it would be natural for them, but he is the unnatural being in this case, which would very likely shift his perspectives and he would probably end up like the elves from Lord of the Rings for example, jaded and apathetic as the world passes them by essentially.

Now here is the interesting question we should be asking, him being tempered is the key here. Anything he does with any kind of enthusiasm and fanatism really, is essentially Zodiark's plan. kill the WoL, so the threat the WoL is, is gone, which is good for return of the ancients and blablabla all that. The reason he wants to do that really is just cause Zodiark is like, bring these guys back so I have more worshippers, also so I can eat all the things. Nothing he really wants to accomplish, rejoining, genocide, bringing back his old mates, is all just so Zodiark can live. This effectively makes him a slave to a genocidal god and whoever he was is long gone. Maybe his personality and such is intact, but all his actions and fanatical belief in what he does is right, very very likely stems from the fact that there is a god poking at him and being like "Hey, do this so I can reward you! Oh, and also eat all the things!"

This all wraps up backwards pretty nicely, because in a sense, he is "human" to a sense, just absurdly strong and long lived compared to post-sundering humans, but he is a human from the world prior. So why doesn't he doubt his beliefs, why isn't he questioning anything, all we see is him (and his kin) and their endless machinations, 100% devotion to the cause, which to me tells that they are essentially slaves to Zodiark's will at this point, draving the endless strenght, patience and faith in the endgame they have, working tirelessly without doubt or ever tiring, something that even almost incomprehensibly powerful beings would eventually face in due time.

I do think that Emet-Selch is a decent villian, it does clear the whole Ascian plot quite a bit, explains a lot on how the universe works, which is all good. Buuut, overall he and the other Ascians suffer from few things, 1. they are obviously super evil, 2. they wear black coats, 3. they are nigh unkillable and probably can't die due to age and 4. are on paper so much stronger than any beings on the universe. These things mean that they are doomed to fail anyway, so there is no real tension. If Ascians are involved, you know whatever they planned on doing will eventually fail. Its just how it goes, if they did succeed, the wold would end, and now its not just a wild guess, their evil god would come and consume all life and maybe bring back a few guys, if he can even do that. So end of the world evil dudes in black coats, in a JRPG? They automatically fail, 100% of the time.

Many of his reasons were just even if his actions were not.

Are they just, when the reasons are not his own reasons, but the reasons of the god commanding him, only to quarantee the continued excistence of said god?

[Absimiliard]

Are they just, when the reasons are not his own reasons, but the reasons of the god commanding him, only to quarantee the continued excistence of said god?

Therein lies the problem. We don't have any proof right now that Zodiark is even the one calling the shots. What we do know is that Emet-Selch is driven beyond reason to try and restore his race. How much or how little of this is a direct result of tempering is difficult to ascertain, as there have been numerous instances of tempered individuals acting in ways that run counter to the desires of their primal. The relationship between Ramuh and the sylphs that he (unintentionally, I might add) tempered is one such example.

We unfortunately know nothing about Zodiark's personality. We know how it was summoned, what they asked of it when it was summoned, and what they had to do to re-summon (or restore power to; we're unclear on this) to restore life to their broken world after having already saved it. We also know that the Ancients--or Ascians, as part of the population was presumably tempered by that point--intended to sacrifice the lion's share of that new life liberate their heroes from within Zodiark.

[Anthony]

What part was relatable? The genocide bit or the insane mad god worshipper?

Oh don't get me wrong, those are definitely the elements that polarized us as heroes into going against him! however if you look at it though his eyes, which I think the writers def did a good job in trying to get us to do, he is just doing anything he can to bring his people back. From his view they were at the peek of existence - creating other living things, and as a leader of his people, he made and continued to follow a hard choice. After hydaelyn shows up and stomps zodiark, clearly he is a doomed character (obviously if he's been trying to fix things for thousands(?) of years, with a fundamentally different mindset - i'm guessing is that not all life is equal or of value.

The story portrayed to me at least that he did not see his actions as genocide, clearly yes from our-side of the picture, and i think we can argue that his original character aligned with zodiark because he/they created zodiark with that intent.

The points I think I found most relatable were the explanations of his actions from his point of view during all the side quests as part of the MSQ in Amaurot. I'm very curious how the story would have played out if we were able to control the light and we didn't "fail" his test. What mutual understanding would/could have been reached.